Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Language corner
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 10.10.2015, 14:52
Longbyt's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,306
Groaned at 55 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 10,912 Times in 4,089 Posts
Longbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
Maybe people do think differently. I'm sure I've read that bi-lingual people, children especially, ofen have slightly different personalities in each language.
Like Longbyt speaking English on EF being completely different in character from Mrs. Q speaking Swiss German in RL?
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 12.10.2015, 17:29
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,708
Groaned at 27 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 4,219 Times in 1,911 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
Why? Why do you deny the other folk the opportunity to improve their english?

..because, as mentioned, I don't want to be the Grammar-police.

Just try and imagine a group of 12 expats all socializing together, and one native speaker correcting their grammar as they go. The phase "you must be fun at parties" comes to mind.

My SO is just learning English, I make maybe one correction a day, so we can actually communicate to some extent.

One on-one conversation when someone asks me to help them improve, no problem there, but I also feel that social-spoken English is a living language. IMHO I don't care what words or grammar is used, as long as the intended message is conveyed. The rest is just superiority complexes and smug arrogance when the grammar police are involved.
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 13.10.2015, 10:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,018
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,738 Times in 1,935 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Of course you/one wouldn't correct others (unless explicitly asked), I fully agree.

But not using proper English yourself, even intentionally using improper English, is simply stupid.

Quote:
There's a few threads with common word use which would be considered grammatically incorrect in proper English (for almost all national versions of the language). I do find myself adopting them, when I'm the only native speaker in a group of 12 expats who all seem to use the mistake---I'm not going to be the grammar-nati.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 13.10.2015, 10:28
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,708
Groaned at 27 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 4,219 Times in 1,911 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
Of course you/one wouldn't correct others (unless explicitly asked), I fully agree.

But not using proper English yourself, even intentionally using improper English, is simply stupid.

Again, for me language is communication purpose, and not to attempt to be elitist. I want to partake and convey my message to those I'm socializing with, and if I speak in their style it is commonly much easier.

If that makes me stupid, then so be it, I don't need to please the grammar police to make me feel smart.

And if perfect grammar is what someone needs to make them feel smart, then they have some serious self delusional issues. You must be a ton of fun at parties.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 13.10.2015, 10:35
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 6,596
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 10,932 Times in 4,519 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Most, if not all of my colleagues actively want to improve their English. They feel it needs improvement (in fact, in many cases, they speak better than most native speakers), and ask me to help them by pointing out mistakes and the correct alternative(s). Speaking "dumbed-down" English wouldn't help them at all.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 13.10.2015, 10:48
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,708
Groaned at 27 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 4,219 Times in 1,911 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
Most, if not all of my colleagues actively want to improve their English. They feel it needs improvement (in fact, in many cases, they speak better than most native speakers), and ask me to help them by pointing out mistakes and the correct alternative(s). Speaking "dumbed-down" English wouldn't help them at all.

For many this is indeed the case. People I work with will come to me for English corrections, in which case I will stick to proper grammar to the best of my knowledge.

My example would apply to more a party setting where there is a group of numerous people just meeting and socializing together. If they say something, and ask if it's correct, I usually will aid them. The answer usually has 3 parts: 1: Yes/no your sentence would be understood, 2. This would be a more natural way of saying in that in context, and 3: This would be the proper way to say that.

Of course beyond perfect grammar, both speaking and writing are highly dependent on the audience. I write a completely different style for business papers, emails, academic papers, internet forums, and personal emails. Each style has their own grammar usage, some of which would be considered to be incorrect to purists.
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Chemmie for this useful post:
  #87  
Old 13.10.2015, 10:56
Longbyt's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,306
Groaned at 55 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 10,912 Times in 4,089 Posts
Longbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
I write a completely different style for business papers, emails, academic papers, internet forums, and personal emails. Each style has their own grammar usage, some of which would be considered to be incorrect to purists.
This is often one of the biggest problems with translations. The text is not all on one 'level' and sounds dreadful, although in fact it is grammatically correct. I 'tidied up' something for a minister for a church service recently and had to explain that what he had written was perfect English but wavered between 'King James'' and 'colloquial' which made it difficult to listen to.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Longbyt for this useful post:
  #88  
Old 13.10.2015, 11:09
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,708
Groaned at 27 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 4,219 Times in 1,911 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
This is often one of the biggest problems with translations. The text is not all on one 'level' and sounds dreadful, although in fact it is grammatically correct. I 'tidied up' something for a minister for a church service recently and had to explain that what he had written was perfect English but wavered between 'King James'' and 'colloquial' which made it difficult to listen to.

Very good example. On the topic of religion, when you have the most popular book of all time, having been translated numerous times (not to mention hand copied millions of times), statistically one can only assume that the initial intended message is completely lost! Even a typo with an acceptable word can totally changes the meaning of a phrase.

For us simpletons, even TV shows like the Simpsons lose a good amount of the humor when translated (although they do pull off some jokes decently).

And an example of style translations, in Terminator 2, the movie catch phrase "Hasta la vista, baby" is translated to "Sayonara baby" in the Spanish version. When first learning Spanish, my SO instructed me to say Hasta la vista to her parents. I just couldn't do it with straight face!
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 13.10.2015, 11:38
Ace1's Avatar
A singular modality
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Engelberg & near Basel
Posts: 5,855
Groaned at 167 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 8,886 Times in 3,980 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
For us simpletons, even TV shows like the Simpsons lose a good amount of the humor when translated (although they do pull off some jokes decently).
Some of the best comedy translations can be found in the Asterix books, or at least in the English versions, so I assume others would also have been done so well.

They've managed to maintain the same level of word-play by messing with the language and using dog latin (pun intended) at times, like translating Idefix (Fr) to Dogmatix(En). Apparently proposed by a magazine reader, but brilliant nonetheless.

(For non-francophones the French name comes from "Idée Fixe" meaning a compulsive or obsessive fixation on one idea.)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #90  
Old 13.10.2015, 12:21
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 6,596
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 10,932 Times in 4,519 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
Some of the best comedy translations can be found in the Asterix books, or at least in the English versions, so I assume others would also have been done so well.

They've managed to maintain the same level of word-play by messing with the language and using dog latin (pun intended) at times, like translating Idefix (Fr) to Dogmatix(En). Apparently proposed by a magazine reader, but brilliant nonetheless.

(For non-francophones the French name comes from "Idée Fixe" meaning a compulsive or obsessive fixation on one idea.)
That same example also occurred to me. In fact, the English translations are actually a lot cleverer than the original French names and definitely more inspired than the German names, which are often virtually the same as the French (which means that any joke in the French name is lost in German). I guess the humour depends on the skills of the translator, and the receptiveness of the language to Latin. Getafix (one of the cleverer names) is Miraculix in German (and actually the original French name, Panoramix, also isn't as clever as the English translation); Vitalstatistix is Majestix in German; and the dreadful bard Cacofonix becomes boring Troubadix.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 13.10.2015, 12:45
Ace1's Avatar
A singular modality
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Engelberg & near Basel
Posts: 5,855
Groaned at 167 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 8,886 Times in 3,980 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
That same example also occurred to me. In fact, the English translations are actually a lot cleverer than the original French names and definitely more inspired than the German names, which are often virtually the same as the French (which means that any joke in the French name is lost in German). I guess the humour depends on the skills of the translator, and the receptiveness of the language to Latin. Getafix (one of the cleverer names) is Miraculix in German (and actually the original French name, Panoramix, also isn't as clever as the English translation); Vitalstatistix is Majestix in German; and the dreadful bard Cacofonix becomes boring Troubadix.
Ah, that famous German SOH.

<d;rfc>

EDIT: Just had to look up some of the more obscure ones, like cassius-ceramix. I wonder how many people won't get the reference?
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 13.10.2015, 14:05
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 6,596
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 10,932 Times in 4,519 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
<d;rfc>
I tried, but I don't get it. Something to do with a request for comments?
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 13.10.2015, 14:34
Ace1's Avatar
A singular modality
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Engelberg & near Basel
Posts: 5,855
Groaned at 167 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 8,886 Times in 3,980 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

<d;rfc>

Quote:
View Post
I tried, but I don't get it. Something to do with a request for comments?
Oh, sorry, a USENET, perhaps specifically uk.rec.motorcycles, abbreviation. Ducks, (sometimes also Hides); Runs For Cover.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #94  
Old 14.10.2015, 17:13
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,018
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,738 Times in 1,935 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
Again, for me language is communication purpose, and not to attempt to be elitist. I want to partake and convey my message to those I'm socializing with, and if I speak in their style it is commonly much easier.

If that makes me stupid, then so be it, I don't need to please the grammar police to make me feel smart.

And if perfect grammar is what someone needs to make them feel smart, then they have some serious self delusional issues. You must be a ton of fun at parties.
Perhaps "proper" is not the term to describe what I'm aiming at. The context of this discussion is since vs for, that's the type of errors I have in mind, or using the correct preposition, etc.

If that makes me elitist in your eyes, despite the errors in my texts (I'm sure there are many), well then that's just how it is.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 14.10.2015, 17:25
Ace1's Avatar
A singular modality
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Engelberg & near Basel
Posts: 5,855
Groaned at 167 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 8,886 Times in 3,980 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
Perhaps "proper" is not the term to describe what I'm aiming at. The context of this discussion is since vs for, that's the type of errors I have in mind, or using the correct preposition, etc.
Back to which, reversal of the verb/subject words is almost never done in English except to form a question. Seems a common mistake among native German[1] speakers. I saw a great example here just a few minutes ago.
Quote:
in principle are these terms legal as long as they are "reasonable"
Most English speakers are looking for the question mark, then only gradually realise from what follows that it must be a statement. Of course it should read "...these terms are legal..." .

There are some exceptions, as is ever true in English, but safest to always assume that subject precedes verb.

[1] I then had to go and check that the poster was indeed German...
__________________
Introduce yourself!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #96  
Old 14.10.2015, 18:57
Ace1's Avatar
A singular modality
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Engelberg & near Basel
Posts: 5,855
Groaned at 167 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 8,886 Times in 3,980 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

And as a distraction, I looked around the interwebs a bit to see if I could find any others. Came across this one http://www.englisch-hilfen.de/words/false_friends.htm which contains quite a few of those discussed as well as many others.

I've just learned some new ones, some I've come across but forgotten, and a couple that I've been making mistakes in German with myself.

Like eventual, which means a final outcome - I'll get round to leaving the office eventually, whereas in German it seems to mean possible, or even maybe. Another one I'll try and avoid using in (English) business presentations.

There's a couple that are not correct though, barkeeper isn't used to mean "Gastronom, Gastwirt" as stated, but well, a keeper of a bar, same as in German.
__________________
Introduce yourself!

Last edited by Ace1; 15.10.2015 at 14:38. Reason: sp
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #97  
Old 14.10.2015, 19:44
MsWorWoo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zürich Nord
Posts: 1,482
Groaned at 47 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 2,204 Times in 865 Posts
MsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
Like eventual, which means a final outcome - I'll get round to leaving the office eventually, whereas in German it seems to mean possible, or even maybe. Another one I'll try and avoid using in (English) business presentations.
I guess from 'in the event of...'?
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 14.10.2015, 20:07
Captain Greybeard's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sarganserland / NW Lower Peninsula of NE US Midwest
Posts: 3,180
Groaned at 40 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 6,405 Times in 2,034 Posts
Captain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Quote:
View Post
I guess from 'in the event of...'?
Basically yes, whereas in the English version, the final outcome is what matters, because, actually, event comes from Lat. evenire, from ex (out) and venire (to come).

No, an event does not necessarily mean "coming out." Just saying.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Captain Greybeard for this useful post:
  #99  
Old 14.10.2015, 20:43
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 6,596
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 10,932 Times in 4,519 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Commas (or 'commata', as a colleague insists on calling them). Lots of them, and often unnecessary. In German they're obligatory under certain circumstances, but look awful in English. I hope, you agree. I know, that this is a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 14.10.2015, 20:46
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 6,596
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 10,932 Times in 4,519 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Since vs for

Oh yeah, and marmalade. You can't have strawberry marmalade, nor raspberry, and blackberry marmalade is out of the question. Those are jams. Marmalade is made from citrus fruits.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Interdiscount vs Migro electronics vs fust vs conforama ... vribium Daily life 12 30.11.2014 15:03
[Basel] German language school Academia vs Berlitz vs Inlingua vs Migros klubschule SarcasmXXL Language corner 2 31.10.2014 10:55
Moving to Switzerland for PhD - suggestions on Zurich vs Baden vs Brugg kwa Introductions 6 27.02.2013 12:57
I need to pay the insurance since I am in CH or since I made the contract? Jmavatar Insurance 10 21.07.2008 15:47


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0