Hi All,

Can anyone tell me the importance (if any) that tone and intonation play when speaking politely in German? If tone etc are used to change meaning, are they used in the same way as in English? I have noticed that it's quite common for many people to use the "Sie" form with what an English speaker could interpret as a somewhat "naff off and bother someone else" tone.

Also, body language - the humble smile... is it just me or is this used very sparingly, if at all?

Intonation and tone can make a great difference as in any language. My big mistake was putting emphasis on the "Sie" to make sure i was being polite. That is until it was pointed out to me by a native speaker, that the way i said "Sie" to a shop assistant sounded haughty and demanding. Needless to say I've softened my Sie's since.

Sie can be used as a way to put distance between you and the other person. For example, among younger people du is common even between strangers (and is often used inappropriately to customers by poorly mannered service personnel!!), but Sie is still the correct "default" in most situations.

However, if someone has pissed me off, I'm much more likely to engage them with "Sie" because I don't feel they deserve the friendliness that du can also convey.

With regards to your other question, I think it depends very much on your level of German as to whether you are aware of it. The basic answer is yes - these things are important, but you will find that people put far less emotion into their speech and gestures than say in Italian.

I'm of the opinion that all of the subtle things we are aware of in English as natives are also present in German, but in the beginning many people may have a different impression. I'm referring to tone, intonation, facial expressions, body language, non-direct speech. German does tend to avoid some of the frivolous over-politeness found in some flavours of English (would it be too much trouble if I could possibly bother your for...). Though a little bit of additional politeness never hurts either.

Just a final point - as a rule Sie is not used to mean "naff off" (though it can be used this way as I stated at the beginning) it is simply a way of showing respect.
In English if I have to stop a stranger in the street for some reason I always say "Excuse me Sir". I use Sir to show respect to a stranger. Since English doesn't have the equivalent of du/Sie, that's the closest example I can think of.

Hope that answers your question. Next time give us a hint as to your level of German and it will help others to give you appropriate information

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"Sie" already is a sign of respect and/or distance, so maybe there is less need for high-pitched friendlyness than in English? Have to say though, that in my experience intonation and emphasis work quite similar in the two languages.

Thanks for the tip . I will try to avoid the same trap.

I ask because japanese, for e.g., is not a tonal language, and intonation is only significant to a minimal degree. Also with many of the shop sales staff I´ve encountered being quite curt with short, flat intonation (and no smile), I thought it was perhaps standard and acceptably polite.

Would you say females are more "sing songy" and polite with their intonation than males? Having only been here for a short time I haven't picked up what's general yet...

...And getting quality talk time with recently introduced swiss people, let alone a wide range of them) is not the easiest thing .

I don't know if it's a sing-songy is a female trait. My GF tells me that I speak German with a strong Swedish accent, which is very sing-songy.

Actually I disagree with that. Compared to Chinese, Japanese might seem that way. There are many aspects of Japanese where subtle differences in intonation can convey totally different meanings. Aside from this, tones of voice, gestures and body language also play a role in Japanese. In many ways, it's much more important because it is a language which is extremely vague by its nature, so people are often left struggling to understand the real meaning of what is being said (even for native speakers sometimes!)

But I see you've listed Japanese as one of your languages in your profile, so I am guessing that it is at least at a level where you know something about the subject.

Probably the biggest example (for me) where intonation is used in Japanese is the same as in English - going "up" at the end of a sentence to indicate a question (omitting "ka" in casual speech).

Don't confuse rudeness or poor service with some kind of linguistic characteristic. Acceptably polite? Not in my book!

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Actually it seems we more agree, don't you think?... We both effectively say that it is indeed all relative and, comparing the two, Japanese uses intonation but to a considerably lesser degree than German. It seems we also agree that Japanese is not tonal.

Yes, indeed, if a standard statement is used as a question, the intonation is raised at the end (in colloquial Japanese). They also use intonation more in emotionally charged sentences, like "what the *%@! do you think *you're* doing?" (not that anyone ever said that to me )...

However in Japan customer service is very important and using language with minimal embellishment is polite. Respectful body language is quite stiff, with blank face and pretty much no eye contact (or smile) even with other Japanese customers. Of course there are always westernised exceptions, but as a rule not. (What they actually *think* of you as an immigrant is a different issue all together!)

But I digress.... this isn't a Japanese forum

Obviously such demonstrations are not standardly polite in Switzerland, so I will keep that in mind. Next time I shop at the local Coop I'll make sure I'm particularly friendly to the grumpy old bats at the check out

The language(s) and culture(s) here are really interesting and hopefully if I understand them enough it will make fitting in a bit easier... possibly a bit nerdy, but hey.

To add my 2 Rappen to this discussion: I have a company where I employ an assistant (or secretary to be politically totally and abysmally incorrect). Because I prefer a relaxed and more or less informal style of working, I used to switch to "Du" after the first few days. HOWEVER, my previous secretary was an absolute &&%%**** in all matters concerning precision, care and responsibility. This slowly developed after she'd stopped trying to impress when she was new on the job. Her English was good, but that was about it. Soooo, to cut a long story short, and after having had numerous talks in the nicest possible way about getting up to standard, I had to fire her. This is really difficult if you're on a "Du" basis with someone, believe me! That's why I've kept the "Sie" with my current assistant, even though she's worked for me for almost 2 years now. The style is still very relaxed and friendly, but the "Sie" helps when correcting mistakes or when asking her to do something. It gently and subtly underlines who is boss, even though in most matters it's no longer necessary.

Thanks for your 2 Rappen/anecdote... It inspires me to ask when and how to switch between these little lexical lovelies...

So, it seems logical to assume that as boss (superior) it was your call to instigate the switch to du, ...

Is it the same in other social settings? If I'm talking for the first time with a colleague who is of the same vocational rank but older, is it taboo for me to use "du" first? Would it be the same if talking to an older person but outside of a working or formal situation?

As a general rule, the older person or - in a job situation - the "boss" instigates the switch to Du. At work, if I'm on the same vocational rank but younger than the other person, it all depends on the situation (type of company, type of person, how closely you work together etc. etc.). If I felt that the other person would be offended, or if I didn't know him/her very well, I probably wouldn't suggest the Du. But, if we had close contact on a daily basis and if the "chemistry" is right, then there's no reason not to offer the Du.

can I point oyu to this helpful ( and slightly edited) article your's truly has assembled and seems to be an evergreen on all the forums its posted

Adressing people in Switzerland


Being a kind of a Swiss agony aunt, for English speaking ex pats in Switzerland, I realised that this topic is an ‘evergreen’ it regularly pops up, when people arrive to live in CH and wonder why some native people react funnily, when they are being approached by an English speaking person (trying out their German knowledge), very often it is down to those rules as explained below.
You are here only on first name terms from birth with your closest family. The rules to this are kind of unwritten ones and not knowing them, can lead to many misunderstandings with my compatriots, that’s why I came to tell you about this tonight.

2) Is this customary only in Switzerland?
2) No, it is not only we, the Swiss, where this is customary, in the other German speaking countries, such as Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein, the way of addressing people is the same.

3) Where did you get the detailed information’s about
this subject?
3) Some general rules about this, were first described in the 18th century in a book by a German baron, FREIHERR VON KNIGGE, in it he listed also other behavioural things and matters which were of importance that time; things such as
You shall not wipe your mouth with the
Tablecloth and always use fork and knife when eating!:-):-)
In another book about interaction of people and the first name term rules, it states that,in the 40’ and 50’ of last century, a Woman who had to many "du-freunde" loses on value (morally) and is regarded as frivolous!! Nowadays this is rubbish of course; there are many books and booklets out on the market who tell the people of today about this all.

4) So how are the basic rules to this?
4) Always use the ‘high form’ first;
- With people you meet the first time and are same or
above your age,
- People you meet at business, be it a sales person
in a store or a company director,
- People of respect such as Police officers,
teachers, priests and magistrates
- Serving personnel in restaurants, in fact all
people you don't know personally on a closer basis.


5) How do I present myself to someone I don’t know
personally?
5) Always present yourself as: I am Mrs/Ms/Mr such
and such and not with your first name.


6) Who is allowing whom to be called by first name?
And how’s it done when addressing Teenagers?
6) The rules about who is offering first name terms
to whom are;

Always the older person offers to the younger one
Boss to his employees
MIL/FIL to the new daughter / son in law
.........and so on

It is also regarded customary, that the boys and girls who leave school, when they are about 16 years old, are to be addressed in the high form; this is sort of a sign that they now enter the adult world.
And I remember well, how chuffed I was when this happened to me after leaving school, gave me a real boost:-)


7) Why is this Siezen (high form) so widespread in Switzerland?

7) The ‘high form’ here is seen as a sign of respect and politeness to your
vis-à-vis and once you are allowed to call the person by first name,
it shows that you've won the trust of this person, and that will mean a
lot if coming of a native Swiss person ;-)

Calling someone you don't know by first name or "Duzform" is regarded as very rude here and a sign of disrespect.

©EE2004

If you use the conditional, that will sound more polite, just as in English (e.g. "I would like to XXX" and not "I want to XXX", "Could you please XXX?" and not "Can you please XXX?"). I wouldn't try to be self-effacing or "humble", which is generally viewed as being polite in the UK. It's more likely to seem odd than anything else. It's better to be pleasant and polite but direct and not diffident.

I'll second this use of the conditional, at least in Swiss-German/German. I realized recently that I have been here to long when I felt rankled hearing a German person say "ich krieg dann," (I'll be having or I'm getting, literally) when ordering something, instead of "ich haette gerne," meaning I'd like.