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  #21  
Old 04.09.2015, 10:38
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Well you don't, if it is not connected up, it is not able to receive, you are obviously exempt! But I think you have posted on the wrong thread, - what does Billag have to do with identity cards and entering Germany?!

I followed the connection pretty easily.


Pretty clear that in both threads, you interpret the law based on hearsay and undocumented/unsubstantiated statements from unofficial sources. Do you honestly believe every border guard understands the law fully, or worse, that "the guy at the border said I could" defense would stand up?


It is one thing to knowingly take a risk and break the rules, something completely different if you honestly believe what you are doing is legal.
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  #22  
Old 04.09.2015, 10:40
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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It is not my personal view, it is simply what we were told at the border (by German border guards),
[...]
As I said, I would never take my passport with me when going shopping or on a short trip into Germany/Italy etc., - a passport is much more complicated/hassle/expense etc. should it get lost/stolen!
What is that called? Hearsay, rumors, gossip, wash wives chatter.

I also never take my passport with me, but I do not forget my ID card.
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  #23  
Old 04.09.2015, 14:01
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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I asked you many times before, does it have DVB (T, C, or S) tuner, or not?
Sorry! I don't remember that precise question before! Answer: I don't know.
They are just 2 TV sets, one old heavy one (not in use), stored in home (not cellar). One (more modern - flat screen) in use for VHS/DVD, previously used by my neighbour who gave it to me when she bought a new one. I have made no adjustments to them.
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  #24  
Old 04.09.2015, 14:42
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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...but just realized that my ID had expired on July...
You´re looking for the >>European Agreement on Regulations governing the Movement of Persons between Member States of the Council of Europe<<

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Article 5
Each Contracting Party shall allow the holder of any of the documents mentioned in the list drawn up by it and embodied in the Appendix to this Agreement to re-enter its territory without formality even if his nationality is under dispute.

You'll find the mentioned appendix >>here<<.


So if you are a Swiss citizen, you can use your passport if it's expired by no more than 5 years. Your ID would have to be currently valid.


For other nationalities go through the appendix. Most passports may be expired by several years, only few IDs may be expired for few years.


I´d always prefer to travel with valid documents, saving any silly arguments.
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  #25  
Old 04.09.2015, 14:47
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

my now deceased mum's last visit was for our older daughter's wedding - she was about 88 then. At the airport in the UK the customs officer said sternly 'but your passport is out of date by about 10 years'. My mum was sitting in a wheelchair and she took the guy's hands and looked at thimn with her killer smile 'look young man, I am 88 and it is my granddaughter's wedding and my last visit ever to England- do you really believe things like that are important' - he laughed and said 'have a lovely time and take care'. But then ....

At the end of the day, if the custom's officer decides, for whatever reason that s/he's not happy with your paperwork or lack off- they can make any excuse to escort you to your place of abode and wait until you get correct relevant papers- all they have to do is to invoke a suspicion of any kind.
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  #26  
Old 04.09.2015, 14:47
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

Sorry Chris. Switzerland is NOT a contracting party of the European Agreement on Regulations governing the Movement of Persons between Member States of the Council of Europe.

It is only a contracting party of the Agreement between the European Community and its Member States, of the one part, and the Swiss Confederation, of the other, on the free movement of persons which has other regulations then the one you mentioned and mandates a valid form of ID.


Council of Europe Where is my rock? Where I can hide?
Interesting list of valid IDs. Nice.
But does not help OP. He has no Passport at all only a non valid ID card.
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  #27  
Old 04.09.2015, 15:04
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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...Switzerland is NOT a contracting party of the European Agreement on Regulations governing the Movement of Persons between Member States of the Council of Europe...
http://www.gesetze.ch/sr/0.142.103/0.142.103_000.htm

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Europäisches Übereinkommen über die Regelung des Personenverkehrs zwischen den Mitgliedstaaten des Europarates
Abgeschlossen in Paris am 13. Dezember 1957 Von der Bundesversammlung genehmigt am 27. September 19662 Schweizerische Ratifikationsurkunde hinterlegt am 20. Dezember 1966 In Kraft getreten für die Schweiz am 1. Januar 1967
EDIT: Already wrote this before you updated your post - wouldn't have posted otherwise.
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  #28  
Old 04.09.2015, 17:37
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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You (as a Swiss resident of Switzerland) don't need any document at all to enter Germany since both countries are in the Schengen area
Schengen is only about there being no border checks. Schengen does not make any statements whatsoever about national requirements (here: Germany) on being able to identify oneself.

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, so your expired Swiss identity card is more than sufficient!
An _expired_ Swiss identity card is not a valid means of identification in Germany.

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Foreign residents of Switzerland can always take their residence permit as identification
A residence permit is not a valid means of identification.

A residence permit is only a valid means of proof of residence (which is the only thing that matters in the case of customs declaration)

The applicable law has been mentioned already.

Now, in practice - not much will happen most of the time.
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  #29  
Old 04.09.2015, 17:54
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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A residence permit is not a valid means of identification.
But nearly all of the time it is accepted.
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Now, in practice - not much will happen most of the time.
Exactly. When we are checked entering Germany/Italy or returning to Switzerland (road/rail/boat), I show my C-permit, this has never been queried and I have never been asked for my passport (which I practically never have with me) - I just assumed they can't insist on you having it with you any longer due to Schengen! In essence, for as long as the Schengen agreement is valid for Switzerland, things are much more relaxed.

Last edited by plumtree; 04.09.2015 at 18:43. Reason: minor
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  #30  
Old 04.09.2015, 22:54
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

Thanks for all the answers. I see that it's hard to find the relevant laws / information so at least we all had a little chat and learned something new .
As for my case, this morning I went to the local registration office in Lugano and explained the situation. Unfortunately they didn't have time to renew the ID today, and told me to come by on Monday afternoon.
They also said that it's possible to get a temporary, emergency passport at any airport in case the ID doesn't arrive in time.
So, I'm going to call the airport on Monday and ask for more information about that passport, making sure that it will be a valid document to enter Germany. If all goes well and I receive the ID before Thursday, good. If I don't, I'll get that passport which should be ready the day after (which costs 150CHF, lesson learned I guess ).
So, in the end, I shouldn't have any problem if I can manage to get that passport next week.

Anyways, thanks to everyone for the help, I'll update the thread if some complications or other things arise.
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  #31  
Old 07.09.2015, 13:12
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Schengen is only about there being no border checks...
That's a common misconception from people who live inside the Schengen zone, because it is the only advantage they can feel/see.

However, Schengen also means that any visitor who is required to obtain a visa for Schengen-countries now has to apply for only one visa to visit all countries inside the zone, unlike before when they had to apply for numerous separate visas for each country during tours throughout the zone.

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...I show my C-permit, this has never been queried and I have never been asked for my passport (which I practically never have with me)...
You should re-think your strategy. While staying inside Switzerland or Germany no-one is required to carry anything with them. However, when crossing the border everyone is obliged to carry an official means of identification. In Germany so many people started to ignore this rule, that police near the Czech border issued a >>press release<< a while ago. Essence: When crossing the border official ID must be with everyone. Otherwise it is an offence which costs €15.
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  #32  
Old 07.09.2015, 13:53
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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You should re-think your strategy. While staying inside Switzerland or Germany no-one is required to carry anything with them. However, when crossing the border everyone is obliged to carry an official means of identification. In Germany so many people started to ignore this rule, that police near the Czech border issued a >>press release<< a while ago. Essence: When crossing the border official ID must be with everyone. Otherwise it is an offence which costs €15.
Freedom of movement must not be hindered. I'm not going to start taking my passport with me every time I go shopping in Germany! Preposterous! For a brief shopping trip my C-permit suffices as it can identify who I am and states my nationality as well as my legal residence/place of abode (my passport does not even state where I reside).
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  #33  
Old 07.09.2015, 14:00
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Freedom of movement must not be hindered.
Are you British? That would explain why you're not in possession of a rather practical ID card. However, I can tell you how many problems I had taking my non-EU-non-Schengen-visa-required wife with me to my country, just because I happened to live in Ireland (which just as the UK isn't a Schengen-member). We had to plan each and every trip for months in advance, because she needed visas for each trip. "Freedom of movement?" Haha!

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I'm not going to start taking my passport with me every time I go shopping in Germany! Preposterous! For a brief shopping trip my C-permit suffices as it can identify who I am and states my nationality as well as my legal residence/place of abode (my passport does not even state where I reside).
I´m only telling you what the law is, you're free to ignore it. As already stated in this thread, mostly nothing happens. However, what you're doing remains an offence and will cost you €15 if you end up with the "wrong" border guard.

Don't kill the messenger - I don't make the rules
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  #34  
Old 07.09.2015, 14:13
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Freedom of movement must not be hindered. I'm not going to start taking my passport with me every time I go shopping in Germany! Preposterous! For a brief shopping trip my C-permit suffices as it can identify who I am and states my nationality as well as my legal residence/place of abode (my passport does not even state where I reside).
That's your choice but it doesn't alter the fact that your C permit is not valid as ID outside of Switzerland and if you encounter a jobsworth official at some point you risk being fined. You choose to take that risk but other people may not so it's important to provide them with correct information.
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  #35  
Old 11.09.2015, 18:49
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

Just wanted to update the thread, everything went good. I received the ID today (took 4 days, not bad), so I won't have to spend 150.- for the emergency passport.
Very pleased by the speed end efficiency of our small country
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  #36  
Old 12.10.2015, 10:06
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Are you British? That would explain why you're not in possession of a rather practical ID card. However, I can tell you how many problems I had taking my non-EU-non-Schengen-visa-required wife with me to my country, just because I happened to live in Ireland (which just as the UK isn't a Schengen-member). We had to plan each and every trip for months in advance, because she needed visas for each trip. "Freedom of movement?" Haha!


I´m only telling you what the law is, you're free to ignore it. As already stated in this thread, mostly nothing happens. However, what you're doing remains an offence and will cost you €15 if you end up with the "wrong" border guard.

Don't kill the messenger - I don't make the rules
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That's your choice but it doesn't alter the fact that your C permit is not valid as ID outside of Switzerland and if you encounter a jobsworth official at some point you risk being fined. You choose to take that risk but other people may not so it's important to provide them with correct information.
I have spoken to 3 different border guards now on the German side, they all told me that (in the border region at least) the C-permit suffices. In the original post it was not made clear that niciuffo was flying. In an airport things might be totally different of course.

Nevertheless you can fly to another Schengen country from Switzerland and not have your identity checked once as this has happened to me, - the only time I had to show my passport was when checking in at the hotel! (Self check-in online/in airport, only boarding pass checked at gate!)
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  #37  
Old 12.10.2015, 10:21
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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I have spoken to 3 different border guards now on the German side, they all told me that (in the border region at least) the C-permit suffices. In the original post it was not made clear that niciuffo was flying. In an airport things might be totally different of course.
Legally, there is no difference between landborder and airport. The law that applies, at least on the German side, is the " Gesetz über den Aufenthalt, die Erwerbstätigkeit und die Integration von Ausländern im Bundesgebiet (Aufenthaltsgesetz - AufenthG)", which you can find >>here<<.

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§ 13 Grenzübertritt
(1) Die Einreise in das Bundesgebiet und die Ausreise aus dem Bundesgebiet sind nur an den zugelassenen Grenzübergangsstellen und innerhalb der festgesetzten Verkehrsstunden zulässig, soweit nicht auf Grund anderer Rechtsvorschriften oder zwischenstaatlicher Vereinbarungen Ausnahmen zugelassen sind. Ausländer sind verpflichtet, bei der Einreise und der Ausreise einen anerkannten und gültigen Pass oder Passersatz gemäß § 3 Abs. 1 mitzuführen und sich der polizeilichen Kontrolle des grenzüberschreitenden Verkehrs zu unterziehen.
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Nevertheless you can fly to another Schengen country from Switzerland and not have your identity checked once as this has happened to me, - the only time I had to show my passport was when checking in at the hotel! (Self check-in online/in airport, only boarding pass checked at gate!)
Sometimes, this might indeed be possible. However, it doesn't change that you're legally obliged to have a proper document with you anyway.

As I stated before: If you don't have proper documentation with you it's merely an offence which costs €15.

The C permit may be accepted in goodwill, but it doesn't have to be.
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  #38  
Old 12.10.2015, 10:30
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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As I stated before: If you don't have proper documentation with you it's merely an offence which costs €15.

The C permit may be accepted in goodwill, but it doesn't have to be.
Then there's a lot of goodwill on the German side of the border since Switzerland joined Schengen, as I don't recall ever being asked for a passport in 5 years in the region, I never have it with me, for more than 2 years I didn't even have a passport at all as mine had expired.
It would be interesting to know if the €15 fine has actually ever been given to anyone resident in Switzerland who crossed into Germany without any document!
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Old 12.10.2015, 10:40
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

To above (citing doesn't work, is that a bug?) I totally agree.

For the last two years I´ve been crossing the border nearly daily, and I´ve only been asked for ID maybe 3 or 4 times. I always have my ID handy on the sunvisor, so I can't say if my C-permit would've been accepted instead.

Right now the German border is effectively not existant anyway, everybody seems allowed to cross with or without any documentation. So I guess in practice it really doesn't matter.
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Old 16.10.2015, 09:28
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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To above (citing doesn't work, is that a bug?) I totally agree.

For the last two years I´ve been crossing the border nearly daily, and I´ve only been asked for ID maybe 3 or 4 times. I always have my ID handy on the sunvisor, so I can't say if my C-permit would've been accepted instead.

Right now the German border is effectively not existant anyway, everybody seems allowed to cross with or without any documentation. So I guess in practice it really doesn't matter.
Replacing a lost/stolen passport is much more of a major headache compared to replacing a lost/stolen foreigner's permit, not to mention the cost involved, this is why I also prefer to leave my passports at home.
Not having a driver's licence nor an identity card, means my only document is my permit.

Note: German police/border guard have been present at Waldshut station a few times. And refugees have been through the Koblenz (CH)/Waldshut (D) train (Switzerland-Germany) route. Apart from some on the train, I saw pushchairs, coats, litter, child's toys, open bags of refuse all abandoned in Koblenz (CH) station and it wasn't cleared up for several days. There was a lot of similar stuff dumped on Platform 5 (where SBB trains arrive and depart from) in Waldshut (D) as well...
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