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Old 03.09.2015, 21:19
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Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

Hello, I should travel to Germany on the 12th of August for a week, but just realized that my ID had expired on July. I know that you can travel from one EU country to another without a valid ID, but unfortunately Switzerland is not in the EU.
I have also seen that some countries allow people to travel in their territory in case of a recently expired ID (less than 3 months or something). Could it be possible to still use it to enter Germany?
I am going to renew the ID tomorrow morning, so hopefully it will be ready before the 12th (do you know how much it usually takes for them to renew an ID? Do you need an appointment?).
So, is there a way to enter Germany for a Swiss citizen (born here) with an expired ID? I don't have a passport either, just the ID. I am an adult, if that matters.

Thanks in advance for all the help.
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Old 03.09.2015, 21:27
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

Last year I was told it is good for 5 years after expiry for Germany but not for Italy
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Old 03.09.2015, 21:38
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Last year I was told it is good for 5 years after expiry for Germany but not for Italy
Thanks, that's interesting. Do you have a source for that? Also, my ID was made when I was only 13 years old (18 now) so that 5 year rule may change/not apply to my case.
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Old 03.09.2015, 21:52
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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As you are Swiss, under the Schengen agreement you don't need an ID to cross EU borders. Take a bus pass, or a club membership card to prove you live in Lugano.
Really? This site states that:
Quote:
If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another.
And, if you hover over the "EU national" words, it says:
Quote:
or a national of Iceland, Liechtenstein or Norway
So I guessed that Switzerland wasn't included in the list of countries. Is it?

I'm not sure what you mean by taking a bus pass, do you mean I would need to show it to somebody in Germany? For what purpose?
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Old 03.09.2015, 22:06
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Hello, I should travel to Germany on the 12th of August for a week, but just realized that my ID had expired on July. I know that you can travel from one EU country to another without a valid ID, but unfortunately Switzerland is not in the EU.
I assume you mean the 12th of September? Otherwise you will have plenty of time to get a new ID before the 12 of August, almost a year in fact.

I think processing of ID renewal is pretty quick so it's possible you'll get a new one in time but if not I believe you get an emergency ID document.
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Old 03.09.2015, 22:17
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

Take a bus pass as it probably has your photo on it, just to prove where you live, because you don't have an official ID !!!.

From YOUR link, http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...lightbox-uid-0

The border-free Schengen area includes:
...
I know that Switzerland is part of the Schengen area. What I don't know, is if I am allowed to travel from Switzerland (which is not an EU country) to Germany with an expired ID and no passport.
It says in the page that you can do this if you are traveling from an EU country to another, but Switzerland is obviously not in the EU.
It doesn't say that you can travel from one country to another as long as both are in the Schengen area. Those are two different things.

I still haven't found a website that explicitly says that you are allowed to travel from Switzerland to an EU country without showing your ID or passport. I also haven't found a page that explicitly says that you don't need to show your ID while traveling inside of the Schengen area (without mentioning EU).
The europa.eu page says (again):
Quote:
If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another.
keyword being EU. Switzerland is not part of the European Union.

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I assume you mean the 12th of September? Otherwise you will have plenty of time to get a new ID before the 12 of August, almost a year in fact.

I think processing of ID renewal is pretty quick so it's possible you'll get a new one in time but if not I believe you get an emergency ID document.
Yep, meant 12th of September I hope to be able to get the ID or the emergency passport, but I have read that not all countries recognize such document as valid...
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Old 03.09.2015, 22:22
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

So a driver's license isn't proof of your identity, but a bus pass or club membership card is!
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Old 03.09.2015, 22:28
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

The German law:

For Non-EU and Swiss citizens :

§ 13 Abs (1) Satz 2 AufenthG http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/au...2004/__13.html

Quote:
Ausländer sind verpflichtet, bei der Einreise und der Ausreise einen anerkannten und gültigen Pass oder Passersatz gemäß § 3 Abs. 1 mitzuführen und sich der polizeilichen Kontrolle des grenzüberschreitenden Verkehrs zu unterziehen.
In English: A valid ID is needed at border crossing time.
In worst case they can fine you up to € 3000.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/au...2004/__95.html

The corresponding Verwaltungsvorschrift [administrative Regulation], which explains the law (AufenthG VwV):
http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Do...ublicationFile
Note that 13.1.4.2 of Verwaltungsvorschrift the clearly states that an valid ID must be carried when crossing a Schengen or EU border.

For Swiss:

Agreement on FMOP ANNEX I, Article 1 between Switzerland and the EU: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...30(01):EN:HTML
Quote:
1. The Contracting Parties shall allow nationals of the other Contracting Parties and members of their family within the meaning of Article 3 of this Annex and posted persons within the meaning of Article 17 of this Annex to enter their territory simply upon production of a valid identity card or passport.
For EU and EEA (but not Swiss) citizens:

§ 8 Abs (1) of the FreizügG/EU http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/fr..._2004/__8.html
Quote:
(1) Unionsbürger und ihre Familienangehörigen sind verpflichtet,
1.
bei der Einreise in das oder der Ausreise aus dem Bundesgebiet einen Pass oder anerkannten Passersatz
a) mit sich zu führen und
b) einem zuständigen Beamten auf Verlangen zur Prüfung vorzulegen
Oops sorry, you still need to carry an ID with you when crossing the border. Interestingly, unlike the AufenthG it does not specify that it has to be valid!
In worst case they can fine you up to € 2000.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/fr...2004/__10.html
They can not deny entry as it would be against the Schengen agreement (Explained in 3.0.2.1 of the AufenthG VwV).

The corresponding Verwaltungsvorschrift [administrative Regulation], which explains the law:
http://www.verwaltungsvorschriften-i...9371156524.htm


Note: After you crossed the border you can store the ID in a safe place. No need to carry it with you. Applies to EU citizens (§ 8 Abs (2) FreizügG/EU) as well as non-EU citizen (§ 48 AufenthG).
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Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 03.09.2015 at 23:48.
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Old 03.09.2015, 22:30
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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The German law:

For Non-EU citizens :

§ 13 Abs (1) Satz 2 AufenthG http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/au...2004/__13.html


In English: An ID is needed at border crossing time.
In worst case the can fine you up to € 3000.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/au...2004/__95.html

The corresponding Verwaltungsvorschrift [administrative Regulation], which explains the law (AufenthG VwV):
http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Do...ublicationFile

Note that 13.1.4.2 clearly states that an valid ID must be carried when crossing a Schengen or EU border.


For EU citizens:

§ 8 Abs (1) of the FreizügG/EU


Oops sorry, you still need to carry an ID with you when crossing the border.
In worst case the can fine you up to € 2000.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/fr...2004/__10.html
They can not deny entry as it would be against the Schengen agreement (Explained in 3.0.2.1 of the AufenthG VwV).

Note: After you crossed the border you can store the ID in a safe place. No need to carry it with you. Applies to EU § 8 Abs (2) FreizügG/EU and non-EU citizen § 48 AufenthG.

The corresponding Verwaltungsvorschrift [administrative Regulation], which explains the law:
http://www.verwaltungsvorschriften-i...9371156524.htm
Thanks, I guess I'm screwed then. Do you know if an emergency passport would be a valid method to enter Germany, or would I need an ID?
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Old 03.09.2015, 22:49
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

12th of August, that is nearly one year, more than enough time.
And if you mean 12th of September, still enough time to get a passport or an ID card. (I think the later takes less time)
(Oh, just seen it may take up to 10 working days. Considering that big travel time is over I think it is considerably less. I had my passport in less than a week)

Start the process right now:
https://www.ch-edoc-passantrag.admin...uest_locale=it


PS: I just see why it is a wise idea well spent money to have the expiration date of ID and passport a few years apart.

Note: I made some edits in the post above.
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Old 03.09.2015, 23:00
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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12th of August, that is nearly one year, more than enough time.
And if you mean 12th of September, still enough time to get a passport or an ID card. (I think the later takes less time)
(Oh, just seen it may take up to 10 working days. Considering that big travel time is over I think it is considerably less. I had my passport in less than a week)

Start the process right now:
https://www.ch-edoc-passantrag.admin...uest_locale=it


PS: I just see why it is a wise idea well spent money to have the expiration date of ID and passport a few years apart.

Note: I made some edits in the post above.
Thanks for the help. Do you think it would be faster to start the process on the website you posted right now? If that would help speeding things up, I'll do it immediately. But I'm already going to the city office where I can renew the ID, so I'm not sure that would help (?). Or do I need to start the request there, like take an appointment before actually going in person to the office and renew the ID?
I just want to know the fastest and right way to do this
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Old 03.09.2015, 23:11
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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I just want to know the fastest and right way to do this
I don't know, what does it say here? http://www4.ti.ch/di/spop/documenti-...on-biometrica/
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Old 03.09.2015, 23:17
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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I don't know, what does it say here? http://www4.ti.ch/di/spop/documenti-...on-biometrica/
The page says to use the website to take an appointment for the ID renewal. But I'm pretty sure that would take too long, since I'd have to wait for them to tell me when I can go and that would be next week... I thought I could just walk in the office, take some photos and have them send me the ID when it was ready.
I'm going to go at the "Punto Città" in Lugano first thing in the morning and explain the situation, if they can't help I'll have to take an appointment online and hope that everything will resolve in time.
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Old 03.09.2015, 23:19
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Thanks, that's interesting. Do you have a source for that? Also, my ID was made when I was only 13 years old (18 now) so that 5 year rule may change/not apply to my case.

The source was a German border guard; my Swiss wife asked as her id was out of date.
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Old 03.09.2015, 23:27
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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The page says to use the website to take an appointment for the ID renewal. But I'm pretty sure that would take too long, since I'd have to wait for them to tell me when I can go and that would be next week... I thought I could just walk in the office, take some photos and have them send me the ID when it was ready.
I'm going to go at the "Punto Città" in Lugano first thing in the morning and explain the situation, if they can't help I'll have to take an appointment online and hope that everything will resolve in time.
I don't think you can just tun up without an appointment.... or why bother having the appointment system?

I'm not sure I'd be trying to travel around Europe right now without ID
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Old 04.09.2015, 06:54
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

Sorry, I was wrong. I have deleted my posts.
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Old 04.09.2015, 10:06
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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So, is there a way to enter Germany for a Swiss citizen (born here) with an expired ID? I don't have a passport either, just the ID. I am an adult, if that matters..
You (as a Swiss resident of Switzerland) don't need any document at all to enter Germany since both countries are in the Schengen area, so your expired Swiss identity card is more than sufficient!

Foreign residents of Switzerland can always take their residence permit as identification (useful in fact for claiming back tax on purchases, with German customs on the way back). I never take any more than this and certainly wouldn't take a passport (for a couple of years I didn't even have a valid passport) unless I need it for some official business etc.
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Old 04.09.2015, 10:10
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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You (as a Swiss resident of Switzerland) don't need any document at all to enter Germany since both countries are in the Schengen area, so your expired Swiss identity card is more than sufficient!
Please give and cite a source for your statement.
German law AND the Agreement between Switzerland and the EU on free movement of people do not support your view (Source see above).
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Old 04.09.2015, 10:15
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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Please give and cite a source for your statement.
German law AND the Agreement between Switzerland and the EU on free movement of people do not support your view (Source see above).
It is not my personal view, it is simply what we were told at the border (by German border guards), whether it is correct or not is another matter, it is what we were told.
As I said, I would never take my passport with me when going shopping or on a short trip into Germany/Italy etc., - a passport is much more complicated/hassle/expense etc. should it get lost/stolen!
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Old 04.09.2015, 10:19
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Re: Switzerland to Germany with a recently expired ID?

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It is not my personal view, it is simply what we were told at the border (by German border guards), whether it is correct or not is another matter, it is what we were told.
As I said, I would never take my passport with me when going shopping or on a short trip into Germany/Italy etc., - a passport is much more complicated/hassle/expense etc. should it get lost/stolen!
I was told on the internet that even if I have the equipment receive radio and/or TV I don't have to pay Billag.
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