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Old 04.11.2016, 18:24
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Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

After 12 years in a large Company, I will now be fired....
I therefore need to go back to the UK as my children are at critical age and need to settle in English schools (they are currently in International schools paid by the Company).

I need advice with :

(1) reasonable removals companies (though we have already started getting rid of many things)

(2) Importing my old car to UK (I will need a car immediately on arrival hence best to take the car)

(3) Taxes on savings and pensions brought into the UK.

(4) any other helpful tips, kind words would be most welcome as I am currently pulling my hair out with panic !!!

(5) perhaps a name of a good employment lawyer

Thank you all,
G
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Old 04.11.2016, 18:59
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

How long have you been in Switzerland?

Unemployment benefit (RAV) will pay up to 80% of your previous salary, maxing out at around SFr.110,000. Surely after 12 years you have some savings? No need to panic and leave immediately. Relax, take your time, and move when you're ready.
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Old 04.11.2016, 19:20
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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(4) any other helpful tips, kind words would be most welcome as I am currently pulling my hair out with panic !!!
First, breathe.

Just in case you have heard that you will be fired, or that this has been hinted at, and if you don't actually have it in writing, then perhaps your panic is pre-empted. This can easily happen if it feels like the rug is being pulled out from beneath you.

If you have done something that is severaly wrong, in a business sense or contrary to the rules or laws, such that your current employer certainly wants you out, well, then it is probably definite.

If, on the other hand, your being fired is "only" a matter of your department being liquidated, or a conflict with your current boss (horrible though that may be), then it might be worth seeing whether or not you might find a position in a different department of the same company. During those 12 years, you will have met dozens of others working there, and some will know and recognise your skills. Others will have been promoted and may now have the power to employ you in their new departments.

There is a certain sense that any age of a child is a "critical" age. If you really do have to leave this employer entirely, you may find another employer in in Switzerland willing to pay the high school fees. If not, and if you returned to the UK, would you have to pay high school fees there, and would be sure to be able to afford those, or would you send your children to non-fee-paying government schools?

I understand that if your children have always been in international schools here they may, right now, fit better into a UK school (state school or otherwise) than right into a Swiss government school. Even so, it really is, at any stage, still an option to put them in local Swiss scools. Of course that would need a lot more effort, and extra lessons, etc. but it is do-able, and the local Swiss schools know all about helping foreign-language children to integrate.

Have you actually asked your children what they think?
If they can hardly remember any life in the UK, they might feel that Switzerland is home, to them, and may not be so ready to be uprooted. Of course, it is you and your co-parent, if there is one, who makes the final decision, and not the children, but don't just rip up the flooring in a panic, and instead talk to them all.

Ditto, of course, your co-parent/spouse... what does he/she feel about emigrating? At all? Right now? Things can go a lot more smoothly if you'll all be working in the same direction.

Do you actually already have a job to go to, in the UK?
If so, then perhaps it is not all that serious - at least financially - to be fired (albeit emotionally gruelling).
If not, then yes, I agree with adrianlondon: as soon as you have your notice in writing, register with the RAV and claim unemployment benefits while you are looking for work, be it in Switzerland or in the UK. That will give you (individually and as a family) time to figure out what to do next.
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Old 04.11.2016, 19:36
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

Fired or made redundant?
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Old 04.11.2016, 20:42
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

Either way forget the 'good employment lwayer'.
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Old 04.11.2016, 21:36
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

So big deal, the question you and your family must ask is do you want to stay in CH? Kids can go to a normal CHian school you know, or do you belong to some sort of elite, you can (if you are not too vintage) get another job and above all, as already mentioned... Take a deep breath and donīt panic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU
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Old 06.11.2016, 19:57
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

Thanks but nothing elite about us- I went to the local comprehensive school and grew up in a council estate. The kids ages are such that it would be difficult to catch up with German. On hind side should have put them in local school.....
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Old 06.11.2016, 20:05
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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Fired or made redundant?
What's the difference?

Tom
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Old 06.11.2016, 20:24
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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What's the difference?

Tom
Fired = dismissed because the employer definitely no longer wants this employee to work there

Made redundant = dismissed, perhaps even with great regret on the part of the employer, because the budget is gone, i.e. the company/department is shrinking or closing.
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Old 06.11.2016, 20:27
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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Fired = dismissed because the employer definitely no longer wants this employee to work there

Made redundant = dismissed, perhaps even with great regret on the part of the employer, because the budget is gone, i.e. the company/department is shrinking or closing.
Does that make any difference to the fact that you no longer will have a job??
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Old 06.11.2016, 20:29
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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Fired = dismissed because the employer definitely no longer wants this employee to work there

Made redundant = dismissed, perhaps even with great regret on the part of the employer, because the budget is gone, i.e. the company/department is shrinking or closing.
To me, both are being fired to me.

I always thought that 'made redundant' was British for 'fired', as it certainly is never used in the US.

Tom
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Old 06.11.2016, 20:31
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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The kids ages are such that it would be difficult to catch up with German. On hind side should have put them in local school.....
It may well be difficult to catch up with the German, but the Swiss government schools help children to do this all the time. They provide extra support and tuition, and are very strong on the idea of the children managing to integrate.

Therefore, I'd like to encourage you to find out what it would involve before you write the idea off. Many immigrants fear this language divide, but it is a whole different matter when the teachers are welcoming and accommodating.
So that you have real facts, and not just your speculation (or mine) about how it could be, it might be worth your while visiting the local school and asking for an appointment with a senior teacher who could explain to you what it would involve.

Perhaps I'm wrong to repeat this point. If so, just ignore this post, okay?
I realise that a lot depends on the personalities of your children, and whether they themselves are keen to return to the UK.

With regard to schools and RAV, it is best to find out what you're really up against, and what could work for you. Good luck!

Last edited by doropfiz; 06.11.2016 at 20:57.
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Old 06.11.2016, 20:45
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

Made redundant - job function is being removed, no budget, project has ended and function lost etc. In the UK one can't be made redundant without a reason similar to the above otherwise the (ex) employee can claim compensation. In fact, the employer often has to prove that despite the above there are no other siutable positions within the company for the (ex) employee.

Fired - broke company rules or law, such as stealing something. Unless the company can prove the reason for being fired is serious, previous written warnings must have been given (e.g. for turning up late).

In Switzerland, being made redundant can be done for any reason, and will mean notice is given and RAV (if applicable) starts from the first day of unemployment, barring the standard RAV delay for those earning more than a certain amount. Being fired would mean marched out of the door, no notice given, very bad reference, and a RAV penalty equivalent (I assume) to if one had just quit of their own accord.

US English tends to use "fired" for both scenarios as America has little in the way of employee protection or unemployment support so little care is made about the distinction.
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Old 06.11.2016, 20:54
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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In Switzerland, being made redundant can be done for any reason, and will mean notice is given and RAV (if applicable) starts from the first day of unemployment, barring the standard RAV delay for those earning more than a certain amount. Being fired would mean marched out of the door, no notice given, very bad reference, and a RAV penalty equivalent (I assume) to if one had just quit of their own accord.
In Switzerland there is no distinction, same word is used in both cases.

Tom
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Old 06.11.2016, 21:06
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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Made redundant - job function is being removed, no budget, project has ended and function lost etc. In the UK one can't be made redundant without a reason similar to the above otherwise the (ex) employee can claim compensation. In fact, the employer often has to prove that despite the above there are no other siutable positions within the company for the (ex) employee.

Fired - broke company rules or law, such as stealing something. Unless the company can prove the reason for being fired is serious, previous written warnings must have been given (e.g. for turning up late).

In Switzerland, being made redundant can be done for any reason, and will mean notice is given and RAV (if applicable) starts from the first day of unemployment, barring the standard RAV delay for those earning more than a certain amount. Being fired would mean marched out of the door, no notice given, very bad reference, and a RAV penalty equivalent (I assume) to if one had just quit of their own accord.

US English tends to use "fired" for both scenarios as America has little in the way of employee protection or unemployment support so little care is made about the distinction.
AFAIK being fired (involuntary) brooks no penalty with RAV, only resigning (voluntary) delays your payments.

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In Switzerland there is no distinction, same word is used in both cases.

Tom
Regardless of what Switzerland terms it, there is a still a clear difference between those two ways of your job ending.
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Old 06.11.2016, 21:19
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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(5) perhaps a name of a good employment lawyer
What for?

Fired = be let go immediately without garden leave due to some major breach of contract, e.g. stealing, forging signatures, something like that
--> only happens very rarely and under very severe circumstances; companies know that; so if you effed up royally, it's your problem

Being let go = contract termination under observation of usual notice period
--> as has been repeated time and time again in this forum, this is possible any time anywhere with no reason given; unless during a small number of blocking periods (pregnancy, sickness to a certain extent), there's zero way to fight this

Being made redundant = job becomes obsolete (or so they claim), hence termination of contract under observation of usual notice period; if more than 10% of staff, a social plan needs to be presented with some sort of severance (of course companies are clever and sometimes hide redundancies by letting people go one month at a time rather than all at once, to avoid said social plan)
--> usually just the way it is, under very (!) rare circumstances maybe possible to do something about it


And actually, it has an influence on RAV. To be able to claim unemployment money, you need to have lost your job "through no fault of your own". In scenario 1 above (fired), that is not the case - it is the person's fault.
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Old 06.11.2016, 21:24
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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What for?

Fired = be let go immediately without garden leave due to some major breach of contract, e.g. stealing, forging signatures, something like that
--> only happens very rarely and under very severe circumstances; companies know that; so if you effed up royally, it's your problem

Being let go = contract termination under observation of usual notice period
--> as has been repeated time and time again in this forum, this is possible any time anywhere with no reason given; unless during a small number of blocking periods (pregnancy, sickness to a certain extent), there's zero way to fight this

Being made redundant = job becomes obsolete (or so they claim), hence termination of contract under observation of usual notice period; if more than 10% of staff, a social plan needs to be presented with some sort of severance (of course companies are clever and sometimes hide redundancies by letting people go one month at a time rather than all at once, to avoid said social plan)
--> usually just the way it is, under very (!) rare circumstances maybe possible to do something about it


And actually, it has an influence on RAV. To be able to claim unemployment money, you need to have lost your job "through no fault of your own". In scenario 1 above (fired), that is not the case - it is the person's fault.
That definition of "fired" is regional. Where I come from, for example, it can mean either your definition as above, or either of the other two.
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Old 06.11.2016, 21:31
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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That definition of "fired" is regional. Where I come from, for example, it can mean either your definition as above, or either of the other two.
It's just semantics.

The above are the three possible options of contract termination through the employer, with the respective consequences on RAV, or - since she wants a referral to some employment lawyer - legal options (of which there very probably aren't any).
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Old 06.11.2016, 21:50
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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Does that make any difference to the fact that you no longer will have a job??
No, not to the blank fact that you will no longer have a job.
But it can make the world of difference in finding another one.

This is all the more so within a small country such as Switzerland, and/or a specialised professional circuit, even if international, in which one's reputation is known. One is more likely to be able to count on good references and helpful networking from former employers and colleagues who regret that there is no longer the budget for the job, than from those who were glad to see the last of an employee/colleague who had transgressed.
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Old 06.11.2016, 21:55
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Re: Leaving Switzerland, advice needed, please!

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...
And actually, it has an influence on RAV. To be able to claim unemployment money, you need to have lost your job "through no fault of your own". In scenario 1 above (fired), that is not the case - it is the person's fault.
As far as I understood it, an employee who has lost his/her job can still claim RAV even if the fault is his/hers. This could be through misdemeanor, or simply through resigning. The RAV will still pay. What is different, though, is the waiting period and "penalty days". An employee from scenario 1 (fired) has no penalty days.
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