Is there some reason - ammunition to show hubby, perhaps? - why you're particularly looking for 'moans'..?

I'm an at-home mum to two children, and have been for 10 years since I gave up a lucrative, high-powered marketing career when my son was born. At the time, we did a lot of soul-searching and concluded that our lives would run better if we just had one career (both were in areas involving frequent irregular hours and overseas travel). So for the last 10 years we've pushed hubby's career, which has involved moving areas in the UK every 2-3 years, culminating in the move over here nearly 2 years ago.

I do understand that your hubby will be the one with the job, the social recognition and the ready-made set of friends. But it is NOTHING like being a stay-at-home mum in the UK over here, where you're regarded as if you're one step away from a baby factory on benefits. Many women don't work, especially after having children - it is perfectly normal to live on one salary, that's why they're so high. And you know all those high earner workers: you don't think they all married stupid bimbos, do you? You will very, very easily find a set of expat friends, wives and their associated hubbies, to socialise with. Assuming you're coming to one of the main expat areas here - Zurich, Basle, Geneva/Lausanne, near any large city really - you and the kids will be as busy as you want to be, having fun with a whole bunch of interesting, well-travelled people from all over the world.

Sure, full daycare for working is expensive. But there's the equivalent of local playgroups, for a few hours each morning, and these are much more reasonably priced. You'll still get breaks, some time to yourself (I know just how important that is). And within one year your kids will have a second language. It's that easy at their age. But don't worry if you don't quite manage to learn at that rate; English is very widely-spoken and a tiny effort at the local language gets a lot of recognition and smiles. My kids have had 5 teachers so far, with year changes and job sharing; every one has spoken enough English for communication and a couple are fluent speakers.

You will not - absolutely will not - be sitting at home stuck indoors with 2 small kids, going up the walls. Just think about it: it's 'expat central' here, full of intelligent, educated, high-achieving types and their families, all of whom are dynamic and confident enough to move countries and none of whom have their childhood friends and their mum 10 minutes up the road. EVERYONE wants to make new friends, and the social whirl is as dizzy as you want to make it. And you can talk nappy contents or global economics, the choice is yours. Personally, my close friends and I do advanced linguistics to death almost every time we meet; between us we speak English, Russian, Spanish and French, all with kids in the local school here, and all constantly fascinated by how our kids are mapping and processing languages in the brain depending on their age and stage.

Oh, and what everyone else said: amazing lifestyle for kids, they walk to school and potter around the village/town alone from around age 6 or 7, they're so innocent and uncommercial compared to the kids in my son's previous (rural village!) UK schools, there's amazing scenery (we're on the shores of Lake Geneva, with the Alps opposite out of the window), we swim in the lake for 4 wonderfully hot months, then ski for 2-3 brilliantly crisp months, we can drive to several other countries in a matter of hours, there are proper street markets selling local food rather than imported Chinese-produced plastic tat, and a nice seasonal one - 'Christmas' didn't appear in the shops until the start of December.

But I think my favourite thought is just how much we've shrunk the world for our kids. They now think nothing of hopping between countries. They don't see nationality or even not having a common language as a barrier to communication and friendship with other kids. My son's nearly 10, and talks about what job he might like to do and in which country/ language he'd like to do it. Professional jetsetting couldn't be further from our own backgrounds - my dad's a postman, hubby's is a farmer, neither have moved more than 5 miles from the town of their birth - but it will be for our kids. We've given them so many more choices for their own lives that would never have occurred to them if we'd stayed in Townsville, UK for decades.

I've been here almost 2 years now, and it really is still like being on holiday the whole year round (granted, we live in a tourist town on Lake Geneva where they come around polishing the colour-coded flowers for extra prettiness, but still..). I don't know if we'll stay in Switzerland for ever, but I would only want to move to experience another foreign country; we have no desire to move back to the UK at all.

kodokan

What a nice reply kodokan!

Absolutely agree with you there. Personally (as a Swiss) I just can't stand Switzerland in the winter, it's so utterly dull, even in Zürich. Yeah I know, life is what you make of it, but I just don't like cold weather, I don't like the pitiful faces on the street and the general atmosphere of the place.
So I'll be leaving soon, work a bit in China, see how I like it. I really don't believe in staying in a place you don't like. Move on, whatever it costs.

That's one of the things I can't stand about the place.

I'd have made the thread title like:"what makes you stay in Switzerland, beside salary?"

dunno about that.

Corporate code monkeys, perhaps.

Thank you Kodokan,
Your message has been very insightful, I've enjoyed reading all the different advantages of moving to CH with children. Now I'm more willing to go and have a look before making a final decision.
There are not many countries in Europe (if any) where you can say children are growing in a safe and innocent environment, with good quality public education.
This is one of the main reasons for moving to CH.
Is there any advice in relation to fees for full time childcare for under 4s? I understand is a percentage of the family's income, but is it gross or net income? does it include bonus?
Thank you
S

I know, I know - personally I'm not on the expat circuit either, as the local 'home for lunch for 2-3 hours' school timetable precludes me nipping up to Lausanne on a regular basis, and I have sufficient French to make local friends.

But I've been an at-home mum in the UK, where you're already in a minority, and you have to work b****y hard to find anybody who isn't completely vacant to talk to once everyone's maternity leave's finished. I was just trying to help out the OP by demonstrating that it's vastly different here. But in case I went too much the other way, then don't worry - like I said, my dad's a postman, so it's not all hoorah Henry and 'anyone for polo' here either. Just a higher proportion of the more curious, engaged with their surroundings types, rather than those plodding through the life that was served them. The 'but if I don't go to work I won't have anyone interesting to taaaaaalk to' that you get in the UK doesn't apply here.

kodokan

Yup, those are some of the downsides. In other countries where one salary does not cut it, here it can. Of course, depending on your skill set, you may find employment. If you dread the thought of being a stay at home mom, that's understandable. If you have never been one, it's a whole new experience and one that can take a bit of getting used to. There are many stay at home moms in Switzerland.

Switzerland is a great place to raise children. They learn to be independent at an early age by walking to Kindergarten alone. They enjoy a special kind of freedom because it is still considered safe relative to other countries. They learn a new language.

I have to say that I don't have a single client that has regretted moving here. Not one. The mothers with young children are not unhappy staying home looking after their children. That is a full time job. Some have found full time work, others part time, and others choose to stay at home. For many, there is a choice, and that is something they did not have before.

There are other things to mention like medical care, which is excellent.

I spent 6 months living in Beijing and loved it, but missed the clean air and clean streets of Europe. I then spent a year working in Stuttgart and took two holidays to China as I missed the cheapness, the food, and the buzz.

Usually I live in central London and that almost scratches both itches but sometimes it feels good to let an itch build up and then give it a great comforting scratch!

Zurich seems like a place designed to get down to work. There are no traffic jams or road works. Taxes are low while retail prices are high. People keep themselves to themselves. Public transport and everything else runs perfectly on time. Buses are perfectly clean because you wouldn't want to scuff the new Boss suit now would you? You'll wake up every morning feeling refreshed because your neighbour with the dog that won't shut up is now in jail. Your kids can walk themselves to school in the morning because both the guy who likes a bar fight and the guy with two speeding tickets....you guessed it....they're in jail too.

Totally agree... especially with the current job market, it's even harder to get a job, especially without German.
I've been back here since July and still no luck with a job even with having worked here previously and my general knowledge of german.

Put it in a perspective, after all, Kodokan once had a 'lucrative, high-powered marketing career'...

No he doesn't. He can earn more in Switzerland and wants to move. You've come on here to find ammunition not to move. That's ok, just say it like it is.

Oh, come on, life is not only about money. It would be unfair to move only because he can earn more, especially if that would be at the expense of his wife's well-being.

There are obviously women like Kodokan who enjoy staying at home with children and that is perfectly fine. There are also those of us who work not only because we have to, but because we want to. Even if my husband was earning millions I would still go to work.

I know too many foreign spouses living the lives of quiet desperation stying at home with kids in Geneva to believe that a woman who obviously has some professional ambition should just put up or shut up.

Here's my essay submission:

I'd pretty much agree with kodokan on most of her points.

Been here 10 years. I find it odd that people mention inertia as a reason to stay in CH. Unless they are being glib, then they've simply not found anything better, and I think that in itself says something.

When my girlfriend (now wife) came out, she was "when we go back to the UK we'll do...", then it became "if we go back...", then "why would we go back...?" and now we've just bought a house.

Although to be fair, I've never had major "roots" for the UK, having been born abroad and lived 2/3 my life outside the UK. So for me living abroad is not a big deal for me.

For those who think the UK is cheaper than CH, look again. Until the recent currency drops, we always found staying in the UK when visiting family expensive compared to CH. Yes pound for pound things cost more here (pardon the pun), but if you factor in higher wages, lower taxes and better council services then CH simply blows the UK out the water. Not to mention everything works and they maintain things so that they usually don't break. Compared to the US maybe it is cheaper, but certainly not the UK.

We would be in a 40% tax bracket in the UK (not to mention that my wage is 3x what I could get in the UK) - here we are around 25%. With children, your taxes drop as well.

If you are coming from somewhere like London, and that is the lifestyle you are looking for, you'll be unlikely to find it here to be honest. If you are from a large town or small city, then you'll find it OK. I find that Basel punches above its weight for a small city (pop 250-300 k) with concerts and events to nearly all tastes throughout the year.

I would add, that as an EU citizen, getting a work permit is not difficult now. When my wife came over and tried to apply as self-employed (a few months before the bilateral agreements were signed with the EU back in 2002[?]), the authorities told her to come back in two months (i.e. after agreement in place) and rubber stamped her application. So ultimately, depending on your professional skills set you could also freelance.

We live in the center of Basel, and more often than not, I'll hear English being spoken as a common language amongst foreigners (Basel has, I think, the highest % of foreigners).

The biggest change for us was working out that rules are rules, they tend to be black and white, and are not there to be broken. But once you work out that most rules are there to make co-habitation as peaceful as possible, then it's OK. Maybe I don't tune in to the local info much, but I don't hear of as many "neighbour wars" like the ones you get in the UK. What this means is that once you know the rules, you are not discriminated against as long as you stay within them.

I would strongly encourage you to learn the language if you come though. Although from an admin perspective most major organisations have forms in English (a big change from 10 years ago), this is not always the case. And certainly, from a social integration point of view, it will help open much more avenues if you make a real effort. Maybe your husband's package could factor in language lessons? Although I appreciate that doing this with 2 children may not be practical unless you have the childcare support in place!

As for (state) childcare/kindergarten fees, I'm not sure it is related to income, but can't back that statement up - it's my opinion. What I would say is that if you are in for the long haul, then go local as it is free and anything set up for international clientelle is a rip off. Those free services are, after all, what you pay your taxes for. Oh, I'd also add that the CH authorities do encourage you to send your children to state schools and (from what I've read and heard) will provide tuition to help speed up their integration.

Well that's a friendly welcome...

Would probably be helpful to mention what sector you work in, as it may differ - my experience is that some employment sectors are more friendly to international "hires".

From what you're saying here it seems like you have already made you're decision? Please don't shoot me down for this, but if you are already finding excuses and reasons not to do it, then sub-consciously your head and heart is telling you it is something you would feel unsure and uncomfortable with doing. At the end of the day, if you feel uncomfortable about it, then it may just come down to sitting down and writing a list of pros and cons, taking into account what you want, not what anyone else wants. (Really sorry if it seems patronising, honestly that's not the case at all.)

Personally, I moved here when I was 15, did my GCSE's and A Levels at an international school and moved back three years later for Uni. Now four and-a-bit years after going back to the UK, I've moved back to Switzerland. Was it a hard choice, a little more this time but that's because the security of not having to organise myself (i.e. my parents were there for that!) as well as having a girlfriend made me think twice. But it was the right move.

That went on far longer than I initially intended it too!

After reading some of the posts they give quite a balanced picture of life here. Some love it, some hate it and some, like me, swing between the two. I think it depends a bit on why you came here. If it was a bit against your will then you could end up hating the place. If you are more open there is a huge range of great things to do here. It also depends where you go to. If you moved from a nice house in the UK to some tiny apartment in Zürich then you're probably going to be unhappy. I personally didn't like Zürich at all but really like Winterthur. Someone also mentioned that they were still on formal terms with Swiss people after many years which I can't really relate to.

I'd think well about moving to Switzerland. If you could easily move back if things didn't work out then I'd try it out

Yes, you are right, he wants to move, however, I'm not looking for ammunition not to move. I'm a working mother in London. I've got friends, some investments, and other commitments here. I'm afraid of feeling lonely, isolated and powerless if I don't find a job that satisfies me. However, my main priority is to give my children a good education and preferably in a place where I feel they are safe.
I understand I'll need to learn the local language before finding employment, and it may be cost effective to wait until my children are age 4, but I just want to get the sense (lower uncertainty) that I've got a chance (or not) to get on with my life within a reasonable time. Employment does not only provide an income, many times provide personal satisfaction and sense of achievement. I'm not disputing that you cannot get part of that in someone's personal life, but it's more complicated.