Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Other/general
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 16.12.2005, 18:07
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
Hi Richard,

yes - this was the scenario that I was dreading. Spending hundreds on a lawyer to have them capitulate at the last moment, leaving me out of pocket. It's really a low-risk proposition for them to keep stonewalling until they can do so no more.
Hi Gav, they can actually take quite some time to resolve these issues and it can get messy and expensive with a capitulation coming at any time or indeed not.

It might be useful to know who you bought it from then I can get you an opinion on their AGBs basically their terms and conditions of trade. I hope/trust you did not buy it over the internet otherwise things become trickier unfortunately.

The initial legal threat is not too much hassle and only requires a lawyer of minimal skills to draft something and as such is not expensive - I know plenty if it gets that far. Its ignorance of the first legal warning that is the problem and thereafter I am afraid you will be playing poker even with the law on your side (seemingly)

Richard
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 16.12.2005, 18:08
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 3,070
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Actually you could have also specified that if they choose option c that they also had to give you a reduction in the price, if you couldn't agree on on how much that discount should be - then you can choose one of either a or b!

I wasn't suggesting that you should sick the lawyers on them immediately, but a credible threat of this, backed up with a copy of the relevant laws should be enough to make anything think twice about dragging it out. After all, if you were legally in the wrong, would you risk it going to court when you know you have a good chance of losing, and paying the other guys costs. And if you lose would you keep fighting it all the way up to the highest court? I don't think so..

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 17.12.2005, 16:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
A After all, if you were legally in the wrong, would you risk it going to court when you know you have a good chance of losing, and paying the other guys costs. And if you lose would you keep fighting it all the way up to the highest court? I don't think so..

Mark
Mark I would like to say yes you are right but I now sufficient examples of I know you cannot afford to go further therefore I will...

I have further checked this last night with a couple of lawyers and things are not as black and white as one would think There are actually two contracts made with such a transaction the one being a sale contract ie you pay your money and for the payment of money you get a service which in this case is the goods... The second is the guarantee and this might not be that straightforward. There are actually several points that are relevant and without knowing more it is difficult to give a yes you will (probably) win a legal case answer.

Richard
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 24.12.2005, 17:15
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
Hi Gav, they can actually take quite some time to resolve these issues and it can get messy and expensive with a capitulation coming at any time or indeed not.

It might be useful to know who you bought it from then I can get you an opinion on their AGBs basically their terms and conditions of trade. I hope/trust you did not buy it over the internet otherwise things become trickier unfortunately.

The initial legal threat is not too much hassle and only requires a lawyer of minimal skills to draft something and as such is not expensive - I know plenty if it gets that far. Its ignorance of the first legal warning that is the problem and thereafter I am afraid you will be playing poker even with the law on your side (seemingly)

Richard
Hi Richard,

I did indeed buy it over the internet but through an established bricks and mortar shop. ie. They run a webshop. I actually just ordered the goods on the webshop and picked them up (and paid) in person at the real shop.

I'm now back in the UK so I'm not doing too much chasing them up at the moment - I'll have to get back on the case in the New Year. It doesn't help that I don't have internet access where I am so I have to go to a cybercafe every now and then to get on the net (like now).

The shop hasn't responded to my last communication which was last Friday, so I think I'll be investigating my legal options. I find it pretty hard to believe that a shop can actually expect to just take your money and provide zero support when they provide you with defective goods - but this is Switzerland and nothing would surprise me any more.

I'll PM you the details of the shop as I don't want to 'publish' it just yet.


cheers,

Gavan
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06.01.2006, 02:47
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:

If they still insist that this is still not their problem, I'm inclined to go the legal route anyway. Since their current 'offer' is that I just apply for a warranty repair myself, I have nothing to lose in terms of getting the set fixed as I can make a warranty claim any time I like.

Gav

Hi Gav,

I have had your circumstances checked out and in particular to their terms and conditions with respect to warranties and I am afraid they are within their rights. Furthermore, this behaviour is acceptable in almost all EU countries. The handling of warranties unless explicitly offered otherwise is a contract between the manufacturer and the customer and not the supplier and the customer unless they are a direct agent of the manufacturer - ie the sony shop for sony. The primary reason for this is the cost of handling the shipping.

So that is a legal opinion on warranty claims and disclaimers which of course you can back up with a second opinion if you want.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06.01.2006, 20:24
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
Hi Gav,

I have had your circumstances checked out and in particular to their terms and conditions with respect to warranties and I am afraid they are within their rights. Furthermore, this behaviour is acceptable in almost all EU countries. The handling of warranties unless explicitly offered otherwise is a contract between the manufacturer and the customer and not the supplier and the customer unless they are a direct agent of the manufacturer - ie the sony shop for sony. The primary reason for this is the cost of handling the shipping.

So that is a legal opinion on warranty claims and disclaimers which of course you can back up with a second opinion if you want.
I'm not talking about a warranty claim though ... this is about dead on arrival goods. Faulty as shipped, not having developed a fault in the warranty period.

In the UK, irrespective of warranty, you are entitled to a replacement/refund of goods which turn out to be faulty within 28 days, no quibbles. It's considered that if the unit breaks within that time, it was not fit for the purpose for which it was sold (ie inherently defective).

I'm quite prepared to use the manufacturers warranty if something breaks down, say, six months after I buy it. I don't consider that I should go to that hassle if the shop sells me something that's faulty when I get it, which this item surely was.


Gav
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09.01.2006, 00:09
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
I'm not talking about a warranty claim though ... this is about dead on arrival goods. Faulty as shipped, not having developed a fault in the warranty period.
Will check this out and report back...
Quote:
In the UK, irrespective of warranty, you are entitled to a replacement/refund of goods which turn out to be faulty within 28 days, no quibbles. It's considered that if the unit breaks within that time, it was not fit for the purpose for which it was sold (ie inherently defective).
In the UK the actual sale of goods act does not specifically state that something that is "faulty" within 28 days provides an entitlement to be replaced or refunded and definitely not that it is through not fit for purpose which has a much more strict definition. It might well be that this is common belief and indeed to a degree practice but it is not the law!

Richard
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10.01.2006, 22:39
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
Will check this out and report back...


In the UK the actual sale of goods act does not specifically state that something that is "faulty" within 28 days provides an entitlement to be replaced or refunded and definitely not that it is through not fit for purpose which has a much more strict definition. It might well be that this is common belief and indeed to a degree practice but it is not the law!

Richard
True - but 'Faulty when supplied' means that it fulfils the criteria of 'Not fit for the purpose supplied' so you are covered for that (as well as more).


I thought that Swiss society with its paranoid attention to detail would have had a law to cover this sort of thing too. Apparently not. And as I've discovered in many areas over the years: If it's not covered by a law or contract here then you are S.O.L. if you want to appeal to an organisation to 'do the right thing'.


Gav
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12.01.2006, 12:11
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Hi Gav,

As promised here is the first part of my checking out on the legal status of your situation...

"I can't answer the question from a Swiss perspective, although I would be amazed if it was not the same as in the UK.

In the UK your friend is correct that the various Sales of Goods (and Services) Acts do assist, although in reality you probably don't need to rely on such legislation (can't remember all of the case law and how it affects basic principle of "caveat emptor" i.e. may the buyer beware).

The position is this - you contract with the shop to buy a TV - it is an implied term (whether by law under Sales of Goods Acts or at common law), that the TV will work. Thus you have an immediate claim against the shop for the price of the TV if it doesn't work (or a replacement that does work).

The warranty is a seperate issue and gives you the additional benefit of being able to seek redress against the manufacturer (with whom you have no contract of sale/purchase) when otherwise you would have no claim against the shop e.g. in a year's time perhaps.

I would imagine a similar situation exists in Switzerland... Will pass it on.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 16.01.2006, 10:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Hi Gav,

Seeing as Mark is so kind he reminded us all about K-tipp and their website which has a legal advice section. You need to be a registered user and then you can use this link:

http://www.konsuminfo.ch/kontakt.asp?wref=-97

I guess this is going to be the cheapest way to find out your rights seeing as it is a free service!

There is of course 1 problem that the site is German only. If you need a translation I will of course do that for you or alternatively if you pay the K-tipp abo I will ask on your behalf - I am not a member myself...

I did find one article that was close to yours and does imply the law is the same as in England - here it is:

Kann ich die mangelhafte Jacke umtauschen?

Im Ausverkauf habe ich eine Regenjacke ergattert. Nach einigen Tagen hielten die Nähte nicht mehr. Auf der Quittung steht «Kein Umtausch». Muss ich jetzt die Jacke behalten?

Nein. Das Geschäft muss die Jacke zurücknehmen und ersetzen oder den Kaufpreis zurückerstatten. Bei kleineren Mängeln käme auch eine Preisreduktion in Frage. Selbst im Ausverkauf muss der Kunde keine mangelhafte Ware akzeptieren. Das Kaufrecht macht keine Ausnahmen für Waren, die im Aus- und Sonderverkauf erstanden werden. «Kein Umtausch» bedeutet nur: Sie können die Jacke nicht einfach umtauschen, weil sie Ihnen nicht mehr gefällt.

Richard
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 16.01.2006, 11:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Hi Gav,

Here is the opinion of the Swiss lawyer -

Under Swiss law, the situation seems to be similar. I fully agree with Gavin's following statement:
"The position is this - you contract with the shop to buy a TV - it is an implied term (whether by law under Sales of Goods Acts or at common law), that the TV will work. Thus you have an immediate claim against the shop for the price of the TV if it doesn't work (or a replacement that does work)."
--> Therefore - as customer - I would just bring it to the shop; they have to solve the problem.
Of course this does not apply if the customer agreed with the shop on different/special conditions.

What is important under Swiss law, is, that you notify the defects to the seller as soon as you have discovered it.... if you wait you might have a problem.(After one year it is too late anyway)

Wish I guess means you can pursue the legal route in the knowledge you will win...


Richard
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 16.01.2006, 13:00
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
Hi Gav,

Here is the opinion of the Swiss lawyer -

Under Swiss law, the situation seems to be similar. I fully agree with Gavin's following statement:
"The position is this - you contract with the shop to buy a TV - it is an implied term (whether by law under Sales of Goods Acts or at common law), that the TV will work. Thus you have an immediate claim against the shop for the price of the TV if it doesn't work (or a replacement that does work)."
--> Therefore - as customer - I would just bring it to the shop; they have to solve the problem.
Of course this does not apply if the customer agreed with the shop on different/special conditions.

What is important under Swiss law, is, that you notify the defects to the seller as soon as you have discovered it.... if you wait you might have a problem.(After one year it is too late anyway)

Wish I guess means you can pursue the legal route in the knowledge you will win...


Richard
Thanks for your help, Richard. I did indeed notify the seller of the defect as soon as I noticed it (on the Saturday of the week I bought it - I had collected it on Monday evening and first occurence was Friday evening but it was intermittent).

I'd guess there could be a point of debate that somehow the item had broken in the couse of me using it (for about 10 hours) and wasn't faulty as supplied. Maybe enough doubt to drag the case out a bit.


Now I have to see how much time a warranty claim would take to fix and weigh that up against having to be without a working set until legal action produced results. Also I need to take into account the fact that the shop could conceed at any point prior to court action, leaving me with lawyer's bills.

What a situation to be in - this really seems to be a country where the consumer has to fight for everything.

Cheers,

Gavan
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 16.01.2006, 20:59
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 3,070
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
What a situation to be in - this really seems to be a country where the consumer has to fight for everything.
Well I guess you could look on the bright side in that the law is well and truely on your side, and it is quite clear and quite specific. It also grants you far more rights than you would have in most other countries. In any country you could have a problem where a retailer breaks the law or refuses to grant you your rights, and in any country you would be faced with the same choice - take them to court or forget about it. I understand that you are pissed about your TV - and I would be too, but if you consider all the factors you could be in a much worse situation (i.e. dealer refuses to do anything, tells you it's all your fault - or even better - dealer disappears), so I just think that the above statement isn't exactly fair on Switzerland that's all.

On another note (forgot to mention this earlier) the dealer told you that this law didn't apply to you because you got it cheap, and suggested that if you wanted this law to apply you should have bought it some place more expensive (i'm paraphrasing here). I guess you already know that this is complete rubbish. The law is the law and I didn't see any provisions in it about cheap and expensive shops and it applying in some cases and not in others. The only time it wouldn't apply is if they had you sign a statement BEFORE purchase that you waived your right to it, and you didn't do this, so you are covered, but I guess you know this.

As Richard pointed out the easiest way to go is spend CHF30 and join K-Tipp. You can phone them up and you'll get regular newletters so you can help to improve your German. I actually find their newsletters really informative, and you can get all hot and bothered about other peoples' consumer related problems. I just wrote to them about that credit card problem I mentioned in another thread, and they wrote back to say they'll look into it. You might find that if you made them aware of your problem they might right the dealer and do heavy breathing down the phone...

ANother option is if you have some legal insurance. I did, but I cancelled (part of my I hate insurance drive!). I guess you didn't have this insurance anyway.

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 17.01.2006, 00:23
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:

On another note (forgot to mention this earlier) the dealer told you that this law didn't apply to you because you got it cheap, and suggested that if you wanted this law to apply you should have bought it some place more expensive (i'm paraphrasing here). I guess you already know that this is complete rubbish. The law is the law and I didn't see any provisions in it about cheap and expensive shops and it applying in some cases and not in others. The only time it wouldn't apply is if they had you sign a statement BEFORE purchase that you waived your right to it, and you didn't do this, so you are covered, but I guess you know this.
Ah Mark how nice of you to raise this point. Actually if the legal aspect is covered in one of the Swiss GBs then you can't waive your right to it... That section of the contract would be invalid. That is why dodgy contracts will always have the section that the rest of the contract stands if one part is deemed illegal or unacceptable...

And therefore you can sign away your rights to your hearts content on this one and still be covered...

Richard
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 17.01.2006, 12:39
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
Well I guess you could look on the bright side in that the law is well and truely on your side, and it is quite clear and quite specific. It also grants you far more rights than you would have in most other countries. In any country you could have a problem where a retailer breaks the law or refuses to grant you your rights, and in any country you would be faced with the same choice - take them to court or forget about it. I understand that you are pissed about your TV - and I would be too, but if you consider all the factors you could be in a much worse situation (i.e. dealer refuses to do anything, tells you it's all your fault - or even better - dealer disappears), so I just think that the above statement isn't exactly fair on Switzerland that's all.

On another note (forgot to mention this earlier) the dealer told you that this law didn't apply to you because you got it cheap, and suggested that if you wanted this law to apply you should have bought it some place more expensive (i'm paraphrasing here). I guess you already know that this is complete rubbish. The law is the law and I didn't see any provisions in it about cheap and expensive shops and it applying in some cases and not in others. The only time it wouldn't apply is if they had you sign a statement BEFORE purchase that you waived your right to it, and you didn't do this, so you are covered, but I guess you know this.

Yes, clearly the price paid is irrelevent to your rights to the protection of the law - that was just cheek on the part of the dealer. What I was unsure of is the precise law concerning the sale of defective goods. It was my belief that anyone selling you something defective had, by law, to take it back - irrespective of other warranty concerns but I couldn't be certain.

That seems to be the case though I guess that they could argue that in the time I had it (4 evenings/~10 hours of use) it _developed_ the fault and then go on about not providing the warranty themselves, as stated in their T&Cs.



Yes - of course it could happen anywhere that the retailer would refuse to give any support at all (even on defective as sold goods) but it would be very hard to see this happning in the UK, other than from the dodgiest of mail order suppliers. It just seems that the whole 'you got it cheap from us so what do you expect' thing that the owner of the shop hit me with, is typical of the sort of arrogant attitude to customer service that I regularly see here.

Many Swiss people have warned me that businesses are forever 'trying it on' and that you always need to be on your guard when spending a lot of money. Maybe _that's_ why I often see customers in shops discussing every possibility for about 20 minutes before making even relatively small purchases! (A big of a bugbear for me if I'm waiting to get served.)

I just don't like this way of doing business. I don't always want to be preparing myself for a possible conflict with the vendor whenever I go to buy something expensive. I want to be able to go to the shop/website and buy with the confidance that if there are problems, it's not going to be a big issue later down the line (let alone if the goods are faulty as shipped!).

Businesses in the UK just seem to be so much better in general at dealing with customer concerns. Here, spending your cash can sometimes feel like an 'us vs them' situation. I'm not kidding, I find even general shopping here to be pretty stressful. I always love it when I visit the UK and can head to a nice shopping centre like Bluewater and get all the stuff I want in a relaxed atmosphere. The difference is really noticeable.



Gav
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 17.01.2006, 23:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:

Businesses in the UK just seem to be so much better in general at dealing with customer concerns. Here, spending your cash can sometimes feel like an 'us vs them' situation. I'm not kidding, I find even general shopping here to be pretty stressful. I always love it when I visit the UK and can head to a nice shopping centre like Bluewater and get all the stuff I want in a relaxed atmosphere. The difference is really noticeable.
Go to the upmarket shops and you get service. Try and do it as cheap as possible and you are taking risks. One of the things the internet has done is give people the chance to get a bargain but simultaneously to get ripped off.

I actually think this rule of thumb is universal. There are always exceptions but generally you pay for service one way or another... By the way why don't you try out fashionfish www.fashionfish.ch I could imagine you would like it there and you get good service... No cheap teles though...
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 21.01.2006, 17:53
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 3,070
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Quote:
Ah Mark how nice of you to raise this point. Actually if the legal aspect is covered in one of the Swiss GBs then you can't waive your right to it... That section of the contract would be invalid. That is why dodgy contracts will always have the section that the rest of the contract stands if one part is deemed illegal or unacceptable...

And therefore you can sign away your rights to your hearts content on this one and still be covered...

Richard
According to the article referenced earlier in this story (I think it was k-tipp or kassensturz) you can waive you rights prior to the purchase.

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 22.01.2006, 12:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Hi Mark, Actually you can do what you want but when you appear in court then OR will take precedence. Its like saying okay I agree in writing to you killing me. After the event you will still get done... The same applies to some rights. You can waive them but this has zero effect when you claim against them. Richard
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 24.01.2006, 13:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Hello Gav,
I promised to send you the relevant paragraphs that apply to your case and here they are. They are articles 201, 205-207 and 210 of the Swiss Obligationsrecht. Apparently this is basic law and often contested by shops who almost always lose. These are the current articles from the fifth revision valid as of December 2005.
Oh and they are in German - is that a problem? Richard

Art. 201
1 Der Käufer soll, sobald es nach dem üblichen Geschäftsgange tunlich ist, die Beschaffenheit der empfangenen Sache prüfen und, falls sich Mängel ergeben, für die der Verkäufer Gewähr zu leisten hat, diesem sofort Anzeige machen.
2 Versäumt dieses der Käufer, so gilt die gekaufte Sache als genehmigt, soweit es sich nicht um Mängel handelt, die bei der übungsgemässen Untersuchung nicht erkennbar waren.
3 Ergeben sich später solche Mängel, so muss die Anzeige sofort nach der Entdeckung erfolgen, widrigenfalls die Sache auch rücksichtlich dieser Mängel als genehmigt gilt.

Art. 205
1 Liegt ein Fall der Gewährleistung wegen Mängel der Sache vor, so hat der Käufer die Wahl, mit der Wandelungsklage den Kauf rückgängig zu machen oder mit der Minderungsklage Ersatz des Minderwertes der Sache zu fordern.
2 Auch wenn die Wandelungsklage angestellt worden ist, steht es dem Richter frei, bloss Ersatz des Minderwertes zuzusprechen, sofern die Umstände es nicht rechtfertigen, den Kauf rückgängig zu machen.
3 Erreicht der geforderte Minderwert den Betrag des Kaufpreises, so kann der Käufer nur die Wandelung verlangen.

Art. 206
1 Geht der Kauf auf die Lieferung einer bestimmten Menge vertretbarer Sachen, so hat der Käufer die Wahl, entweder die Wandelungsoder die Minderungsklage anzustellen oder andere währhafte Ware derselben Gattung zu fordern.
2 Wenn die Sachen dem Käufer nicht von einem andern Orte her zugesandt worden sind, ist auch der Verkäufer berechtigt, sich durch sofortige Lieferung währhafter Ware derselben Gattung und Ersatz allen Schadens von jedem weiteren Anspruche des Käufers zu befreien.

Art. 207
1 Die Wandelung kann auch dann begehrt werden, wenn die Sache infolge ihrer Mängel oder durch Zufall untergegangen ist.
2 Der Käufer hat in diesem Falle nur das zurückzugeben, was ihm von der Sache verblieben ist.
3 Ist die Sache durch Verschulden des Käufers untergegangen, oder von diesem weiter veräussert oder umgestaltet worden, so kann er nur Ersatz des Minderwertes verlangen.

Art. 210
1 Die Klagen auf Gewährleistung wegen Mängel der Sache verjähren mit Ablauf eines Jahres nach deren Ablieferung an den Käufer, selbst wenn dieser die Mängel erst später entdeckt, es sei denn, dass der Verkäufer eine Haftung auf längere Zeit übernommen hat. 1bis Für Kulturgüter im Sinne von Artikel 2 Absatz 1 des Kulturgütertransfergesetzes vom 20. Juni 2003 40 verjährt die Klage ein Jahr, nachdem der Käufer den Mangel entdeckt hat, in jedem Fall jedoch 30 Jahre nach dem Vertragsabschluss.41
2 Die Einreden des Käufers wegen vorhandener Mängel bleiben bestehen, wenn innerhalb eines Jahres nach Ablieferung die vorgeschriebene Anzeige an den Verkäufer gemacht worden ist. 3 Die mit Ablauf eines Jahres eintretende Verjährung kann der Verkäufer nicht geltend machen, wenn ihm eine absichtliche Täuschung des Käufers nachgewiesen wird.

Last edited by Richard; 25.01.2006 at 10:58.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 24.01.2006, 14:25
Lob's Avatar
Lob Lob is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: -
Posts: 7,817
Groaned at 49 Times in 44 Posts
Thanked 1,973 Times in 1,060 Posts
Blog Entries: 1
Lob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Consumer rights in Switzerland

Richard

Some. Punctuation. Would. Help.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0