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Old 12.10.2015, 15:24
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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Those links don't seem to agree completely. For example, Düdingen, just across the lake from us, is 16 - 25 (slightly hard) according to the le Flon link, yet 28-35 (hard) according to the Entretec link. Barberêche is 16 - 25 or 15 - 39.
I'm tempted to see how we get on without for the 1st year or so and install at a later date if we clearly have a calk problem..
Even at 16, the minimum end of those ranges, you will have a chalk "problem" -- at least in terms of visible deposits. That can be sorted by a bit of scrubbing and/or judicious application of assorted acids. It's the hidden damage to the innards of appliances that produce hot water that worries me.

Water with hardness >5°fH will slowly but surely produce calcium carbonate deposits, over time.
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Old 12.10.2015, 15:31
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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Water with hardness >5°fH will slowly but surely produce calcium carbonate deposits, over time.
And at 0.18, we have none at all, even after decades!

Tom
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Old 12.10.2015, 15:35
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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And at 0.18, we have none at all, even after decades!

Tom
Yes, just as in Sydney. Even after living in London for seven years, having crunchy flakes appear in my tea in Basel came as something of a surprise to me.
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Old 12.10.2015, 15:38
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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Even at 16, the minimum end of those ranges, you will have a chalk "problem" -- at least in terms of visible deposits. That can be sorted by a bit of scrubbing and/or judicious application of assorted acids. It's the hidden damage to the innards of appliances that produce hot water that worries me.

Water with hardness >5°fH will slowly but surely produce calcium carbonate deposits, over time.
Fair point. I suppose the initial investment is worth it in the long run.

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And at 0.18, we have none at all, even after decades!

Tom
Oh shut up, you .
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Old 12.10.2015, 16:34
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

Actually, whilst we're on the subject of water softeners, we're going round to look at a system by Sonatec this evening. Despite claims of having installed 1000s of systems and won a medal at an inventor's convention in Geneva last year, I'm not convinced by the technology. They claim that by applying a magnetic field to the water supply, this somehow alters the precipitation properties of the calk so it doesn't deposit, but remains in suspension. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced by the theory; it smacks of unproven pseudoscience, but we'll take a look anyway, it's only down the street from us.
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Old 12.10.2015, 17:00
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

We had this technology installed about 20 years ago. There was never any obvious benefit from it. Eventually, it resulted in a reduction in the water pressure and we had to have it removed. The plumber said it was a problem that he often encountered.
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  #47  
Old 12.10.2015, 17:11
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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Actually, whilst we're on the subject of water softeners, we're going round to look at a system by Sonatec this evening. Despite claims of having installed 1000s of systems and won a medal at an inventor's convention in Geneva last year, I'm not convinced by the technology. They claim that by applying a magnetic field to the water supply, this somehow alters the precipitation properties of the calk so it doesn't deposit, but remains in suspension. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced by the theory; it smacks of unproven pseudoscience, but we'll take a look anyway, it's only down the street from us.
It's total bollocks Paddy, use the money saved to buy beer !

I got one and it makes sod all difference, still have to have the boiler cleaned on a regular basis.
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Old 12.10.2015, 17:13
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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We had this technology installed about 20 years ago. There was never any obvious benefit from it. Eventually, it resulted in a reduction in the water pressure and we had to have it removed. The plumber said it was a problem that he often encountered.
Just to clarify, you're referring to the Sonatec, "magnetized water" technology?


Funnily enough, the Swisskalk rep we spoke was, not surprisingly, very dismissive of it, saying he'd replaced two such systems in the past week. In fact, it was just about the first thing he said.
I told my wife beforehand he'd come up with something like that
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Old 12.10.2015, 17:31
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

It's some device that you have to wrap cables around the incomming pipes, then plug them in with 3mm jack plugs to a magic box, twirl a dial to get a low setting and that's it.

Total rubbish, can't remember the name of it but as far as i know it is all same principal of operation for gulable punters
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Old 12.10.2015, 17:46
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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It's some device that you have to wrap cables around the incomming pipes, then plug them in with 3mm jack plugs to a magic box, twirl a dial to get a low setting and that's it.

Total rubbish, can't remember the name of it but as far as i know it is all same principal of operation for gulable punters
I've seen that advertised. The Sonatec device is more complicated and is actually plumbed into the water supply inlet. It has a particle filter, followed by plastic tubes surrounded by magnets, then into the boiler/water supply.
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Old 12.10.2015, 17:50
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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I've seen that advertised. The Sonatec device is more complicated and is actually plumbed into the water supply inlet. It has a particle filter, followed by plastic tubes surrounded by magnets, then into the boiler/water supply.

Sounds like that's for VERY gulable punters then !

What you need to ask yourself is, if it was so good, next best thing to sliced bread, then why is it not all over the market with various copies and the such like
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Old 12.10.2015, 17:52
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Sounds like that's for VERY gulable punters then !

What you need to ask yourself is, if it was so good, next best thing to sliced bread, then why is it not all over the market with various copies and the such like
I've already asked myself that very question, which is why we'll go around this evening to humour the poor woman .
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Old 12.10.2015, 18:02
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

Paddy how is your German?
http://www.umtec.ch/fileadmin/user_u...ngsgeraete.pdf
and
http://www.dvgw.de/fileadmin/dvgw/wa...ufbereiter.pdf

There are systems that work with electricity and they provably work. But those are not the magnetic ones, none of those worked in a controlled test setting. If an electric system is more cost effective then a ion exchanger using salt. I do not know.
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Old 12.10.2015, 18:16
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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Actually, whilst we're on the subject of water softeners, we're going round to look at a system by Sonatec this evening. Despite claims of having installed 1000s of systems and won a medal at an inventor's convention in Geneva last year, I'm not convinced by the technology. They claim that by applying a magnetic field to the water supply, this somehow alters the precipitation properties of the calk so it doesn't deposit, but remains in suspension. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced by the theory; it smacks of unproven pseudoscience, but we'll take a look anyway, it's only down the street from us.
Paddy, aren't you a scientist, a.k.a. educated skeptic?

No, magnetising water softeners don't work -- thousands of posts and Google hits will confirm this!

My main concern with ion exchange systems was that they would increase the salinity of the water and affect its taste. My experience is that they (at least mine) don't. They seem to work very efficiently at substituting the Ca(2+) cations to bind with the CO3(2-) anions without leaving excess Na(2+) and Cl(-) ions floating around. Clever stuff. What I find surprising is the very slow rate at which the salt tablets are consumed, despite relatively high water flow through the system.
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Old 12.10.2015, 21:09
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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Paddy, aren't you a scientist, a.k.a. educated skeptic?

No, magnetising water softeners don't work -- thousands of posts and Google hits will confirm this!
Which is exactly why I did some online research beforehand, hence my subsequent skepticism . In the end, I called her and said we weren't interested.
The reason why we looked at it originally was that I thought it might have been similar to laboratory water demineralisation systems I'd used in the past. My suspicions were raised when I looked a little more closely and it is clearly an unproven, if not totally fictitious, effect. There are some peer-reviewed papers out there which demonstrate that there a change in the crystal structure and precipitation properties, but they are very few and far between.
Even its many proponents can't agree on the actual mechanism.
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Old 12.10.2015, 21:32
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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Actually, I was going to ask you whether you bothered with a softener where you are.
I don't think we've got one - although there is some kind of in-line filter just after the stopcock, which I have to periodically open to flush water through to clean. I don't know what it's supposed to be filtering out though, as we have the normal kalking of appliances.

However, we have a groundwater source where we are, whereas lower down, they get their water from Fribourg (probably ARA, in Pensier), therefore our water is fairly hard, but the use of the normal preventative and remedial products in appliances, does what they're meant to do.

They're in the process of building an underground reservoir on the edge of the woods, up from me, which will be fed by pumped water from the natural groundwater source in Jeuss, although this wont be up and running for a couple more years, and I think it is only intended to supply the immediate area, due to the increase in residential dwellings, to help supplement the struggling existing supply.

In one of the houses I lived in London, was one of these magnetic, 'wrapped cables round the pipe' jobbie - don't recall noticing a difference in water quality.
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Old 12.10.2015, 22:03
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

We also had one of the magnet things on the pipes in the house we bought. It was an absolute joke.

We bought a water softener which is imported from the US by a Swiss plumbing firm. It does work. I need to add 1 to 2 bags of salt per year, which I buy at Landi.

The machine is installed at the water supply. It is important to have it installed in such a way that if the machine is not working, you can bypass it without a lot of effort.
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Old 12.10.2015, 22:25
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

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It is important to have it installed in such a way that if the machine is not working, you can bypass it without a lot of effort.
Or if you want to water the garden without wasting softened water -- in my case the garden taps are fed by pipes that arise after the main stopcock and after some of the internal plumbing, so the water softener had to be installed before the garden pipes. The bypass is very simple, though --just a pair of taps that need to be turned one way or the other.
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Old 12.10.2015, 22:51
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

I've always found whiskey softens water quite adequately
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Old 14.10.2015, 13:00
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Re: How hard is my tap water? Answer inside.

Ordered our reduced-price Swisskalk softener yesterday . 22yards, if you want your reference payoff reward, drop me a PM.
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