Grüezi mittenand!

My sister wants to study Psychology and as a brother I want to know what her options are in Switzerland. She is fully fluent in German, French, Italian and English. She has a gift for listening to people and she really wants to be a Psychologist. I don't want her to study something for 3-5 years only to find that there is no demand or jobs for Psychology. It's her decision naturally but I want to give her informed guidance. My mini research shows that there is the Jung institute and then there is Zurich university. Could someone who has done Psychology give a mini summary of which place is better to study Psychology and why? How is the job market and the level of qualification one receives from these two places? I will be paying for her education so would like some guidance and help.

Danke

There's also the Institute for Applied Psychology in Zurich. A relative of mine got his education in one of the predecessor institute way back around 1980 before he opened his own practice. At the moment they offer a Bachelor and soon they'll have the course for Master diplomas too.

The studies in the University of Zurich are more theory oriented, especially the first few years, and she would have to invest at least 4.5 years for the Master.

I don't know about the Jung Institute and the requirements for jobs in the field.

I think the Jung institute only does post-grad courses.

Plenty of other avenues for using the skills learned in a non-psychological field, so don't lean on her too heavily to study for a job at the end. That's kinda bankrupt to me; better to study for the love of studying your subject and develop your interests as you go along.

Otherwise, may I suggest IT or Economics?

Would your sister be starting in a Bachelor program or with a Masters/Ph.d? If she has studied something before that is not psychology (for example philosophy or economics), then they may not allow her to change into a Masters/Ph.d program. If she is just starting then her chances are good to get in.

Another thing about the market. By the time she gets out of school with her degree demands will have changed. If she likes psychology and wanted to be a shrink then she should just go for it.

Yes she would be doing Bachelor program. I won't be stopping her in fact I am encouraging her. What I wrote were just some private thoughts. We came from a completely broken home so after finishing collage she put her dreams on hold and worked normal office jobs as she could not afford to go university. She is 32 now and can finally follow her dreams. She is financially independent but I will be making sure that she does not run into money problems due to being a full time student. She would be living off her savings with me as backup.

I heard that the Jung institute is more hands on and provides real world experience while the Zurich university degree is not very real world. 5 years seems a long time for a Bachelor degree. Are there no 3-4 year versions?
She would like to open her own practice eventually. I hope her age won't be a negative factor. On the other hand age actually could be positive thing in this field. What is the relevance of Psychology diploma compared to degree when it comes to qualification in this field?

I forgot to thank everyone in my previous post so thanks for all your help.

Basically if you want recognition from any reputable Psychological Society you have to go at least as far as Masters level. A Bachelors Degree - let alone only a Diploma - is pretty academic and you don't get to play with the funky stuff until you're studying for a Doctorate. Which, if you want to become clinical, is a mighty fine idea.

Could she not study abroad - perhaps the UK - on a foundation course to see if it's right for her? This typically takes less than a year and gives you the opportunity to see Psych as it really is: a subject more concerned with Statistics and boring books than playing Ghostbusters with good-looking Seniors

Lots of undergrads find Psych not what they were expecting. It's a very popular topic as a subsidiary class because people think it'll get them laid. Well, Psych students do have the most fun, but that's their personality and not the subject

It's a shorter schlepp in the UK (typically 3-4 years for a Bachelors) but may be expensive as a foreign student.

I'd be very surprised if you'd get "real world" experience at the Jung Institute as an undergrad; there're some pretty hard core Shrinks who study there and they're often already Professors. No harm to call them though, right?

Concur. One of my closest friends has done only the Bachelors and really struggles to find a "proper" job - in fact he's frighteningly close to a depression, which is sad and ironic at the same time.

I must say that combining skills is everything. Having studied Sociology (now getting my Masters now in Luzern) one does not find many job oppertunities. However my work experience as a computer service technician, being one of the top ten persuasive/communication analysis speakers in the US combined with the skills that ones learns as a sociologist have opened a number of doors in tech firms, that want somebody who understands the technical side of the business and is able to communicate it to people who are not gifted in computers.

Nobody is knocking my door down as it is, but my chances are better than somebody who has simply studied in one field and has no experience in anything else.

My advice, think of combining things that other people don t.

I am a post-doc in Psychology, but in cognitive psychology, which is very far removed from clinical psychology, which appears to be what your sister is interested in. Even so, I know the North American system regarding how to become a clinical psychologist quite well because many of my friends in graduate school were in the career path.

Basically, you cannot get many psychology-related jobs with just a Bachelors degree, except maybe in the domain of industrial/organization psychology, working in a human resources department of a big company doing training or personnel selection. However, even for those jobs you would probably need further, more specialized training (probably a Masters degree) to get a good job. Most other psych-related jobs require at least a Masters degree, and to be a clinician you need a PhD / doctorate.

To be a clinical psychologist in North America, you would be looking at 4-5 years to do the Bachelors, then 5-7 years to do the PhD. Even after that, you need to do a supervised placement for at least one year, do a certain number of client-hours, and sometimes take further tests before you become a fully-licensed clinician. However, the system could be quite different here.

A lot of people who do not want to study for so long, or who are not accepted into the clinical psychology PhD programs (they are normally very competitive) often go into the related field of social work, which does not require as much training and is not as competitive.

In the USA, another popular avenue to take after a Bachelors in Psychology is to do a Masters in School Psychology, and then to go an work for a school board.

Whatever your sister decides to do, I wish her all the best with it.

Hello Gunter. You didn't say where your sister wants to work.

In the USA someone with an MA in Social Work, Theology, or Counseling can go on to become a licensed Counselor.

In Switzerland the laws are much more restrictive. If she wants to work in CH, a BA & MA in Psychology are absolutely mandatory, otherwise she cannot get licensed. That being the case, ZH University would be her best choice. The Jung Institute in Kusnacht and ISAP (International School for Analytical Psychology) www.isapzurich.com in ZH, as already mentioned, are both post-graduate.

I'm a psychology student at the university of Zurich and member of the "Fachverein der Psychologiestudenten" (FAPS) and would say the following about Psych in Zurich assuming one does a normal degree from start to finish:
Pro:

• There is a lot of research going on, in particular in the Neuroscience area, where we have some outstanding people.
• You will in part be taught by people who are some of the best-known academics in their field.
• The area of study is very broad, you start with two-three years of "overview" and then decide what you do (so-called "Vertiefung")
• Most professors have well-prepared lectures with slides available for download.
• As a student you have access to many great facilities and the food in the student cantine is pretty good and value for money.
• There is no numerus clausus, foreign students are, however, asked to take an entry exam depending on what they did before.
• The FAPS runs a script group, whereby you take notes for one lecture per term and have access to all the notes the other people took in that term. Great for people like me who have to work.
• The fees are comparatively low, costing around CHF 1500 per annum plus about 200 - 300 Francs for books per term.

Contra:

• There is no numerus clausus, meaning that, on average, 700 - 800 people start psychology every year. The largest lecture theatre is set out for around 500 people and there are no podcasts available so if you need to hear the professor, you have to turn up early.
• A lot of the students are only just twenty and the Swiss school system seems to favour an attitude whereby you talk during lectures because you are still geared into thinking you HAVE to be there. Very annoying.
• Because there are too many people, you have to write exams at the end of each of the first two years. They have a pre-determined fail-rate of between 60 and 65% and you can re-take after one year. If you're unlucky like me, this can make you take four years to pass the first two years, whereby the first year is a reflection of how hard you work and the second is due to a lot of hard work AND luck.
• All the lectures are held in German only, some (but not all) of the books that must be read are in English. The lecturers tend to disagree with what it says in the books so beware...
• There are no grants or student loans available so you'll have to finance it all by yourself. You also have to find your own accommodation, which is costly.
• You are OBLIGED to take minor subjects and follow their demands, so e.g. English as a first minor will require taking a seven hour per week Latin course (unless you have a Latin A-Level or similar), as a second minor that is waived. You have to pick a first and a second minor and fit those courses in with the rest.
• The above may not seem as a disadvantage but the Psychology institute has recently been moved to Oerlikon, whereas most of your minor subjects will be in Irchel (near Milchbuck) or the Centre. The timetable means you will be leaving lectures early and arriving at others late.
• Some of the professors have openly said that they can't be bothered to teach and treat you accordingly. Or they will say that they can't understand how anyone can fail the exams, which is a bit harsh considering the pre-determined fail-quota.
• The department of Psychology is incredibly disorganised, with lecture times changing as late as a week before term starts. In some cases documents have gone missing etc. Other departments have the same issues, most students would tell you that the university would have failed if it was a company in the private sector.
• You will be made to feel that the university doesn't really want you there until you reach the latter part of your course. Having been accepted to a good University in the UK, this is one of the things I found hardest to deal with when I came here. Thankfully the FAPS takes some of the edge off by providing knowledge and support through the admin jungle.
• The exams you have to write will have mistakes in them or answers that are completely against what you learnt. Even though they decide on your future, the lecturers don't even proof-read what they set as an exam for hundreds of people. For example, I wrote an exam last summer where six out of 33 questions couldn't be taken into account because they were misspelled, had crosses next to the right answers in some of the versions etc.

That's all I can think of now and I realise there are more "against" than "for". It's just that studying here is VERY different from studying abroad and I would not want someone to come here with false preconceptions. Maybe my own opinion is particularly negative because I see behind the scenes. I'd be happy to hear a more positive view, as it may change mine...

Ha! Ha! That's Lecturers the world over, eh? Swines. It was a major gripe with my Psych studies that interpretation was never allowed. Just learn the academic stuff by rote and sod off, undergrad...

Well, the thing is, if a lecturer makes you read a book which she doesn't really discuss in her lectures and instead prefers to ramble on about other things or, if we do talk about the book, basically just reads it to us, then you can assume that the book is the basis of knowledge. However, you need to know that the lecturer is a big believer in psychoanalysis and sees it as the solution for everything, even if it is not the best method for certain things.

So if our book states "eating disorders benefit from cognitive behavioural therapy" and we are asked what is to be used for treating EDs in the exam, you still have to say "psychoanalysis" because of the lecturer's personal preference.

Hardly scientific but that is the way it is.

Anyway, the first few years at uni here are about learning everything off by heart and regurgitating it. No thinking involved, except the bit where you think what the hell the lecturer was thinking when he prepared the exam.

I would say that is a symptom of a problem that I've noticed within the little that I know of clinical Psychology in Switzerland - many professors still have a lot of faith in psychoanalysis and other methods that have a long history but not much scientific support. Professors and attitudes amongst psychologists in N. America seemed to be very much more into more modern and empirically validated methods; for instance, cognitive behavior therapy.

Pish and tish! A short, sharp shock, cold baths and a long walk in the country followed by a square meal and ten hours sleep is what we should be prescribing...

Has anyone attended Jung Institute? or has heard anything about it?

I haven't studied psychology but I know for a fact that psychology majors are the ones with the highest percentage of unemployment of all Phil 1 graduates. This, of course, doesn't mean that you'll definitely be unemployed after graduation. But it does mean that you need to put in some extra effort to graduate in the top 10% of your class and it also means that a Bachelor's just won't cut it.

peter

I am 1,5 years away from finishing my BA in Psychology. I'd like to study for Masters and then spend four years at smething like Jung Institution. My goal is to open my own practice in Zurich. I have enough time and financial rewsources to pursue that. I am trying to figure out the optimal path to my goal. The limitation that I am facing is that I do not speak German, so studying and practising in English is the only option left.

I think that as with many Bachelor level degrees, it is the transferable skills you accumulate while studying that make you attractive to an employer. In the ‘real’ world academic prowess is not as highly valued as experience. I remember an interview with the Civil Service, who were more interested in my previous customer service experience (working in a shop!) to how many academic papers I had written… :-S

I know I did many hours voluntary in my undergrad years and got involved with research, even if that was sat imputing data, as this builds up the C.V., gave me access to the latest studies in my field of interest and numerous networking opportunities, which gave me the edge over students who just did their degree and nothing more. It also gives you more people to ask for good references!

Clinical Psychology doctorate courses, more than any other fields of Psychology, will require candidates to have some kind of psychological assistant experience before considering them for the course. Students wanting to embark in this area are often advised to do voluntary work to build up this experience as they study. Else it would mean working for a year or so before applying for the doctorate.

Being determined, focused, with a direct goal in sight and working over and above to get it, is usually the best way to secure the position of your dreams. I think that mature students have the advantage here over their younger counterparts and are more likely to be goal orientated having already experienced the real world.