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  #21  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:24
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Re: Brave New World?

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And go back to your own one?
Yes, exactly!

Just because I made ONE wrong choice I`m stuck here on this stupid planet of idiots trying to play God with stuff they have no idea of, or how it all came together in the first place, or why it did, or did not.

The place I actually intended being born on is a place where people know they didn`t create themselves, and messing with bits and pieces of genetics to satisfy the self-reproduction of individuals who otherwise couldn`t reproduce themselves is not practiced.

At least I do know I`m not a GM product, and don`t have to worry about some weird/strange surfacing of an unthought-of occurence occuring that scientists were unaware of in selecting my production process.

Twenty or fifty years down the line something will maybe crop up in those GM folk, (there`s no guarantees of normality other than the non-inheritance of parents disease) but the scientists who manufactured them will have moved on to more financially productive pass-times.

Makes me wonder if future folk (the GMs) with "problems" will simply be incarcerated in a building with no windows to shield the population from their behaviour? Possible.
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  #22  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:28
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Re: Brave New World?

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We're already affecting natural selection with prenatal screening for Down's Syndrome in foetuses and genetic disorders and then aborting as we see fit.

We allow advanced science and medical techniques to keep babies alive who may otherwise perish.
In turn, these babies will grow into adults and perhaps have children of their own.

Why is this so different?
Lol. Tell me more about how natural selection still even holds anymore in a world where the less educated and less successful humans breed much more than the more educated and successful ones.

The world is going to sh!t because we have destroyed natural selection altogether.
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  #23  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:32
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Re: Brave New World?

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Just because I made ONE wrong choice I`m stuck here on this stupid planet of idiots trying to play God with stuff they have no idea of, or how it all came together in the first place, or why it did, or did not.
In that case IVF and chemotherapy is playing God too, isn't it?
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  #24  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:33
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Re: Brave New World?

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Isn't that a bit like saying that capitalism has fine tuned production and working process to the point that grass-roots driven competition and innovation become pointless and we can seamlessly transition into big-government communism?
I don't think I follow the comparison...
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:39
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Re: Brave New World?

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We allow advanced science and medical techniques to keep babies alive who may otherwise perish.
In turn, these babies will grow into adults and perhaps have children of their own.
To me this is no different from say using technology and science to provide clean water and so permitting people to live in areas where the natural water would kill them, or providing artificial heat in places where without it humans would freeze to death. Science is ultimately expanding the envelope of survivable habitats and the envelope of viable phenotypes. Maybe one day we'll be able to offer drugs for people with Down Syndrome making them able to live normal lives and even pass on their genetic condition to their children without this having adverse affects. Maybe one day we will have cities under the ocean bed. This is ultimately all in the same category of technology enlarging the envelope of viability and survivability. If ever technology should crash and we should return to a stone age, its game over for the people who rely on it.

Creating a super race is a different game entirely. It could be game over for all of humanity.
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  #26  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:47
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Re: Brave New World?

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Lol. Tell me more about how natural selection still even holds anymore in a world where the less educated and less successful humans breed much more than the more educated and successful ones.

The world is going to sh!t because we have destroyed natural selection altogether.
I don`t believe "we have destroyed natural selection".
It still exists.

In poor countries people have lots of babies, and half of them die, but still leaves more children than the parents can actually afford to feed and educate. Breeding is free. It provides "security" for the parents in their old age.

Rich countries - people have one, or two, or three, maybe four or even five children - depending on their income/stability, feed and educate them, medically care for them. The people in this category provide their own old age security. Some even leave enough behind for their children to inherit.

The rich then feel guilty over the poor - who have no clean drinking water, not enough food, no housing, no money for education, no education available, no medicines, no hospitals.

But over-fed (pschychotic?)1st world is catering for obese ladies (going by the photos of the two ladies in the opening post of thread) who are carrying inheritable diseases to enable them to re-produce themselves. Natural selection ......? Natural selection would naturally wipe out those unable to breed successfully. If left alone.

The poor who survive are extremely healthy beings.
The rich (sickly ones) will perpetuate their sickness, or risk being genetically modified, with dubious results in the far reaching future.
What could be the outcome in their future GM generations?
No-one knows, not even the scientists.
Its all experiment.

I see lots and lots of active lawyers in the future.

Oh, by being mandated by government makes it a government responsibility, not the scientists. So more taxes, to pay more compensation in the future for "damages"/social intervention/upkeep of the modified humans?

Going to be an interesting future here.
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  #27  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:47
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Re: Brave New World?

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I don't think I follow the comparison...
Because capitalism relies on the concept that the aggregate affect of small changes at grassroots level, and succesful changes being adopted more broadly, does on an aggregate level and over time improve conditions for all participants. Thus instead of requiring centralized leadership the system is self optimizing. Communism on the other hand says that if you put some super smart people in a commission then they can take better leadership decisons and so improve society more effectively than capitalism can. The empirical observation of both systems shows that prcatice and theory didn't match.

Now replace the word capitalism by natural selection and communism by scientific genetic manipulation.
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  #28  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:51
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Re: Brave New World?

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In that case IVF and chemotherapy is playing God too, isn't it?
Do you know exactly what chemotherapy is? And what it does?
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  #29  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:51
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Re: Brave New World?

The only theme I now recall about Brave New World is the drug use - Soma. Is that out in the market now?
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  #30  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:03
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Re: Brave New World?

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I don`t believe "we have destroyed natural selection".
It still exists.

In poor countries people have lots of babies, and half of them die, but still leaves more children than the parents can actually afford to feed and educate. Breeding is free. It provides "security" for the parents in their old age.

Rich countries - people have one, or two, or three, maybe four or even five children - depending on their income/stability, feed and educate them, medically care for them. The people in this category provide their own old age security. Some even leave enough behind for their children to inherit.

The rich then feel guilty over the poor - who have no clean drinking water, not enough food, no housing, no money for education, no education available, no medicines, no hospitals.

But over-fed (pschychotic?)1st world is catering for obese ladies (going by the photos of the two ladies in the opening post of thread) who are carrying inheritable diseases to enable them to re-produce themselves. Natural selection ......? Natural selection would naturally wipe out those unable to breed successfully. If left alone.

The poor who survive are extremely healthy beings.
The rich (sickly ones) will perpetuate their sickness, or risk being genetically modified, with dubious results in the far reaching future.
What could be the outcome in their future GM generations?
No-one knows, not even the scientists.
Its all experiment.

I see lots and lots of active lawyers in the future.

Oh, by being mandated by government makes it a government responsibility, not the scientists. So more taxes, to pay more compensation in the future for "damages"/social intervention/upkeep of the modified humans?

Going to be an interesting future here.
Overpopulation, ageing populace, deforestation, loss of species, climate change, depletion of resources... not to mention political/religious drama.

The world seems to be a juggernaut surging ahead at full steam with no one at the helm. I don't see the future to be too bright, let alone interesting. Too bad even well-meaning, ordinary people can do very little to provoke the huge change that is required to stop us from the seemingly inevitable collapse of our civilisation.
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  #31  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:06
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Re: Brave New World?

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We're already affecting natural selection with prenatal screening for Down's Syndrome in foetuses and genetic disorders and then aborting as we see fit.

We allow advanced science and medical techniques to keep babies alive who may otherwise perish.
In turn, these babies will grow into adults and perhaps have children of their own.

Why is this so different?
I find it very sad that Down Syndrome babies are aborted. Just because they don`t grow into "normal" adults they have no worth in this world.

Down Syndrome people are the nicest, kindest, most trusting, sincere humans I`ve ever met, they have no guile, and tell no lies. They are not "simple" or "idiots". They are just different to the majority of "normals" (who leave much to be desired in those fields).

I once read/heard someone say that Down Syndromes are perfect people, the rest of us are abnormal.

But now we flush them - they are not worthy of living. The great "I am" of us has spoken?
We care for our household pets until they die, but not prepared to care for a child that lives longer than the average pet?
At least a "normal" baby will grow up and leave home one day, and also provide grandchildren?

About the natural selection story (or survival of the fittest) ...... by medical/scientific intervention babies are kept alive (who would otherwise have died) and go on to produce children - who in their turn probably also require the medical/scientific intervention to keep them alive, and so on and so on down thru their generations. Not the "fittest" and not "natural selection".
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  #32  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:08
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Re: Brave New World?

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Do you know exactly what chemotherapy is? And what it does?
Yes. Why do you ask?
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  #33  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:09
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The only theme I now recall about Brave New World is the drug use - Soma. Is that out in the market now?
Hahahaaa ... It`s the synthetic version of Marijuana.
(Drink it, don`t smoke it)

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Yes. Why do you ask?
Have you seen anyone treated with it? And what the results were?
Were they what was promised?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 05.02.2015 at 17:39. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 05.02.2015, 15:20
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Re: Brave New World?

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Have you seen anyone treated with it? And what the results were?
Were they what was promised?

Actually, I've been treated with it. So far, ok - some collateral damage but better than letting Cancer have its way. I watched my mom die of that sh*t.

I agree with you about Down's syndrome though.
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  #35  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:24
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Re: Brave New World?

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Have you seen anyone treated with it? And what the results were?
Were they what was promised?
In the context of this thread, a person could have their hereditary cancer treated with chemo and survive and then pass down the faulty gene to the next generation.

Without the scientific breakthrough with chemotherapy (and with storage of sperm etc), they would have died and not been able to reproduce and hence pass down the gene to the next generation.
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  #36  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:24
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Re: Brave New World?

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Down Syndrome people are the nicest, kindest, most trusting, sincere humans I`ve ever met, they have no guile, and tell no lies. They are not "simple" or "idiots". They are just different to the majority of "normals" (who leave much to be desired in those fields).
Yes of course.

But succesful parents these days need children they can boast about, like winning violin competitions or being top of class at school. And if that becomes the main objective of having sprogs, the ones that aren't candidates for such options quickly become unwanted and disposable. This is precisely one of the reasons why we shouldn't let the crazy science-for-profit department design the ideal human of the future or have a monolopy on ethical discussions.
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  #37  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:27
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I agree with you about Down's syndrome though.
May be that was a bad example but that's just one of many defects that can be spotted with screening.

But I don't think this thread is really about abortion.

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Yes of course.

But succesful parents these days need children they can boast about, like winning violin competitions or being top of class at school. And if that becomes the main objective of having sprogs, the ones that aren't candidates for such options quickly become unwanted and disposable.
Actually, the thing that people with a handicapped child do mention more than anything else is that basically the child's siblings have to take second place with everything as the child in question can take over their lives and all their time.

The fact that the child isn't going to win a violin competition is really neither here nor there.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 05.02.2015 at 17:40. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #38  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:36
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Re: Brave New World?

I think "three parents" and "designer babies" is overstating the case.

On the other hand, a spokesperson interviewed by the BBC said "we can't let personal values determine public policy", which puzzled me. How the zarking fardwarks is public policy ever decided on except that originates in some bunch of humans "personal values". I'm actually in favour, but it made me want to throw things at the screen.

Of course, if we were technologically capable of choosing all the attributes of our kids, we'd end up with a world where everyone looks like me.
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  #39  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:44
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Re: Brave New World?

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May be that was a bad example but that's just one of many defects that can be spotted with screening.
Is it really a defect? More like another mutation. At some point our opposable thumbs were also a mutation- but we're not all defective now, are we?

The impacts of active selection are beyond our comprehension and control. When making 'test tube' mice with genes selected for certain traits, the desired results often come with unpredictable side effects. Except we're not talking about mice in a lab - we're talking about potentially contaminating our own gene pool.

And when will it all stop? Where's the ethical boundary? Scientists have been implanting human genes into animals for years - so if it goes the other way, will it become customary to genetically modify our 'children' (and the human genome) with animal genes, in pursuit of the perfect 'human'?

On top of all this, the technology will be available only to the rich. There will be no democracy when it comes to deciding the fate of the human genome...
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  #40  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:55
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Re: Brave New World?

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Is it really a defect? More like another mutation. At some point our opposable thumbs were also a mutation- but we're not all defective now, are we?
Some mutations are positive and useful to the advancement of mankind.

In what way is a reduced IQ and reliance on others for many tasks an advancement for both the individual or mankind?
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