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Old 05.02.2015, 11:18
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Brave New World? [3-parent babies]

coming soon to a petri dish near you: designer babies
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:23
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Re: Brave New World?

Parliament legitimises threesomes?
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:24
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Re: Brave New World?

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coming soon to a petri dish near you: designer babies
And your views on it? Or are you just a news feed?
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:27
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Re: Brave New World?

My view is that it paves the way towards the realization of Huxley's dystopian vision. I thought that was implied by the thread title
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:30
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Re: Brave New World?

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My view is that it paves the way towards the realization of Huxley's dystopian vision. I thought that was implied by the thread title
On the other hand, I see it as a fantastic development in the prevention of debilitating mitochondrial disorders.
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:35
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Re: Brave New World?

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My view is that it paves the way towards the realization of Huxley's dystopian vision. I thought that was implied by the thread title
You used a question mark - indicating it may or may not be a "Brave new world". You don't indicate whether a "Brave new world" is something you approve or disapprove of - whether you consider it a triumph of humanity over nature, of control and order over chaos.

I thought turning the book into a movie was a work of genius - especially using Lego.
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:35
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On the other hand, I see it as a fantastic development in the prevention of debilitating mitochondrial disorders.
agreed, but will the technology be abused? and what constitutes abuse?

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You used a question mark - indicating it may or may not be a "Brave new world". You don't indicate whether a "Brave new world" is something you approve or disapprove of - whether you consider it a triumph of humanity over nature, of control and order over chaos.

I thought turning the book into a movie was a work of genius - especially using Lego.
I don't believe that there is such a thing as a triumph of humanity over nature.

I didn't know it had been made into a movie...

Last edited by 3Wishes; 05.02.2015 at 17:36. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:50
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Re: Brave New World?

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agreed, but will the technology be abused? and what constitutes abuse?
In what way could the restricted and highly specific mtDNA component of a mitochondrion be abused? We have had the technology to manipulate genomic DNA for several years now, and as far as I know it hasn't been abused yet.
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:51
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Re: Brave New World?

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agreed, but will the technology be abused? and what constitutes abuse?
As paddy rightly points out, it's for preventing mitochondrial disorders. That makes it a medical treatment which means it will be limited to those who need it. Morally and ethically it's no different to a vaccination.

This isn't popping down to "Baby World" and speccing up your spawn.

All technology has the potential to be abused, but that doesn't mean it's going to be.
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:57
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Re: Brave New World?

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As paddy rightly points out, it's for preventing mitochondrial disorders. That makes it a medical treatment which means it will be limited to those who need it. Morally and ethically it's no different to a vaccination.

This isn't popping down to "Baby World" and speccing up your spawn.

All technology has the potential to be abused, but that doesn't mean it's going to be.
Are you so sure?

Maybe fixing mitochondrial DNA may be a first step. But once the technology becomes affordable and mainstream, who is to prevent backstreet designer baby clinics from assembling babies to order? Or Big Genetics patenting them? OK, this is an exaggeration, I know, but it's the direction we're talking about.

To say there is absolutely no risk and no ethical dimension here and thus no need for watchfulness is to enter a dangerous state of lethargy.
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Old 05.02.2015, 12:25
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Re: Brave New World?

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Are you so sure?

Maybe fixing mitochondrial DNA may be a first step. But once the technology becomes affordable and mainstream, who is to prevent backstreet designer baby clinics from assembling babies to order? Or Big Genetics patenting them? OK, this is an exaggeration, I know, but it's the direction we're talking about.

To say there is absolutely no risk and no ethical dimension here and thus no need for watchfulness is to enter a dangerous state of lethargy.
As I stated above, we have had this technology for years and it is highly regulated.
Mitochondrial transfer actually involves very little, if any, genetics at all, apart from identifying healthy mitochondria. It is more of a cytological technique.
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Old 05.02.2015, 12:37
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Re: Brave New World?

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But once the technology becomes affordable and mainstream, who is to prevent backstreet designer baby clinics from assembling babies to order?
I think the bigger question is whether designer baby clinics are necessarily bad. The discussion can go both ways. E.g. I don't see anything inherently bad about perfecting the human body or striving towards biologically perfect babies. Ultimately, I believe that the human body is far from perfect (as well evolved as it is). What are we in the end? A sack of flesh that degenerates fairly rapidly - offering the consciousness but a fleeting, brief moment of time to strive before old age and physical frailty takes it all away.

Yes, there are dangers on the road. Yes, mostly all technology can be abused. Yes, we should still absolutely strive to augment/replace the most limiting factors of our existence. To do anything else is to accept the fate that either we get wiped out by some extinction event or we eventually use up all the resources on this earth and humanity irreversibly declines back into a non-technological society, forever to be bound to our planet and whatever its end will be.
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Old 05.02.2015, 12:39
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Re: Brave New World?

Genes have already been patented: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_patent

I'm sure somewhere, illegal genetic modification of humans is already happening.

If we can permanently eliminate inherited diseases, this is a good thing, IMO.
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Old 05.02.2015, 12:55
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Re: Brave New World?

I foresee Super Sportsmen/women in the future - genetically modified Super-Heroes. No place for common non-GM`s striving to compete.

Beautiful Bodies? (super models, beauty queens)

A Slave race? (destined to slave only, and happy to do so).

Mathematic Geniuses? Scientists? Morons? Humans without ability to think? Muscle-bound work-horses?

Each one bred for specific duties on earth?

Now the puzzle for me is HOW did Huxley even think of this way back when he wrote the book? It`s all so obvious now.

Earth is running out of clean water in the meantime, food is becoming scarce for many, most countries are at war with others, criminality is going rampant.

But sick people can continue to make reproductions of themselves, minus their genetic sickness.

Is time for me to leave this planet
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Old 05.02.2015, 13:03
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Re: Brave New World?

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I foresee Super Sportsmen/women in the future - genetically modified Super-Heroes. No place for common non-GM`s striving to compete.

Beautiful Bodies? (super models, beauty queens)

A Slave race? (destined to slave only, and happy to do so).

Mathematic Geniuses? Scientists? Morons? Humans without ability to think? Muscle-bound work-horses?

Each one bred for specific duties on earth?

Now the puzzle for me is HOW did Huxley even think of this way back when he wrote the book? It`s all so obvious now.

Earth is running out of clean water in the meantime, food is becoming scarce for many, most countries are at war with others, criminality is going rampant.

But sick people can continue to make reproductions of themselves, minus their genetic sickness.

Is time for me to leave this planet
And go back to your own one?
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Old 05.02.2015, 13:06
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Re: Brave New World?

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If we can permanently eliminate inherited diseases, this is a good thing, IMO.
Maybe we can start with genetically inherited diseases, and then move on to eliminating laziness, eliminating the genes that make people critical of government, create people who will work their ass*s off until they're 80 and then fall down dead, totally eliminating the need for pension funds or social institutions. create people who are naturally resistant to pesticides so Monsanto can spray our crops to death, re-mould the human genome to create a powerful master race, born wearing jackboots so we don't need to manufacture them.

Natural selection has over millions of years shown that it's pretty good at coming up to solutions to all sorts of problems and challenges. Replacing natural selection by intelligent design might turn out to backfire - it is based on the assumption that some self-deluding agency can take better decsions than a self-organizing system - it's what caused communism to fail where capitalism succeeded. Maybe some gene that appears to be useless or even disadvantageous may end up turning out to be useful at some point in the future.
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Old 05.02.2015, 13:39
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Re: Brave New World?

Hmmm! Eugenics, when I read discussions about it I always think….:

KAHHHHHHNNNN!
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:04
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Re: Brave New World?

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Maybe we can start with genetically inherited diseases, and then move on to eliminating laziness, eliminating the genes that make people critical of government, create people who will work their ass*s off until they're 80 and then fall down dead, totally eliminating the need for pension funds or social institutions. create people who are naturally resistant to pesticides so Monsanto can spray our crops to death, re-mould the human genome to create a powerful master race, born wearing jackboots so we don't need to manufacture them.

Natural selection has over millions of years shown that it's pretty good at coming up to solutions to all sorts of problems and challenges. Replacing natural selection by intelligent design might turn out to backfire - it is based on the assumption that some self-deluding agency can take better decsions than a self-organizing system - it's what caused communism to fail where capitalism succeeded. Maybe some gene that appears to be useless or even disadvantageous may end up turning out to be useful at some point in the future.
Or natural selection could be selecting for a species capable of active selection that accelerates the evolutionary process? It could be argued that the rate of evolution has been increasing more and more rapidly, which would make the evolution of a species that can "evolve itself" in a short a span as a single generation a foregone conclusion, right?
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:18
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Re: Brave New World?

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Natural selection has over millions of years shown that it's pretty good at coming up to solutions to all sorts of problems and challenges. Replacing natural selection by intelligent design might turn out to backfire - it is based on the assumption that some self-deluding agency can take better decsions than a self-organizing system - it's what caused communism to fail where capitalism succeeded. Maybe some gene that appears to be useless or even disadvantageous may end up turning out to be useful at some point in the future.
We're already affecting natural selection with prenatal screening for Down's Syndrome in foetuses and genetic disorders and then aborting as we see fit.

We allow advanced science and medical techniques to keep babies alive who may otherwise perish.
In turn, these babies will grow into adults and perhaps have children of their own.

Why is this so different?
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:20
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Re: Brave New World?

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Or natural selection could be selecting for a species capable of active selection that accelerates the evolutionary process? It could be argued that the rate of evolution has been increasing more and more rapidly, which would make the evolution of a species that can "evolve itself" in a short a span as a single generation a foregone conclusion, right?
Isn't that a bit like saying that capitalism has fine tuned production and working process to the point that grass-roots driven competition and innovation become pointless and we can seamlessly transition into big-government communism?
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