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  #21  
Old 19.05.2015, 14:51
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

I would ask the neighbour to write an anonymous note to the baby (thus showing how integrated you are) and show the neighbour pictures of your baby tearing up the note, and demonstarting how the new toy stopped the crying.

Methinks not enough joined up thinking these days?

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  #22  
Old 19.05.2015, 14:59
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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This is a wind-up, surely?
Oh! Someone "groaned" me for the first time! Noooooo. Take it baaaaack!

I'm not saying I expect other people to move out. I am saying that for my own sanity, yes, I would look for another place to live. I can afford it, so why not avoid the stress? Although I would probably do it before I had a baby.

If I couldn't move out, then yes, I would sound-proof the room.
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  #23  
Old 19.05.2015, 15:04
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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Oh! Someone "groaned" me for the first time! Noooooo. Take it baaaaack!
You'll probably get used to this...

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I'm not saying I expect other people to move out. I am saying that for my own sanity, yes, I would look for another place to live. I can afford it, so why not avoid the stress? Although I would probably do it before I had a baby. If I couldn't move out, then yes, I would sound-proof the room.
It's not the noisy family who has the problem, it's the neighbour. So it would make more sense for the neighbour to sound-proof her apartment instead.
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Old 19.05.2015, 15:15
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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It's not the noisy family who has the problem, it's the neighbour. So it would make more sense for the neighbour to sound-proof her apartment instead.
Yes, that is what *should* happen.

But that would appear to be advice for how the neighbour can solve their problem, not how the "noisy family" can solve their problem.
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  #25  
Old 19.05.2015, 22:12
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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Yes, you are probably right. But "we were all babies once" is, I think, a much worse way to say "f*** off, its your problem not mine" and also fails to address the real cause of the problem.

What can a person reasonably do in this situation?

I suppose it it were me, I would make the argument I stated above. But I would also attempt to sound-proof the baby's room by lining the walls and ceiling with high density foam. And I would look to move to an apartment with decent construction so I could live in peace without being paranoid that I was pissing off my neighbours.
1) It's not dismissive; in (German-)Swiss terms it's an appeal to gesunder Menschenverstand. Hard to translate - "common sense" doesn't quite cover it but is the closest I can think of right now. For the Brits, "man on some omnibus or other" perhaps? It's a collection of basic propositions that are held [in a given culture] to be one step above self-evident: things that all normally-reasoning people in that culture would assent to if they thought about it.

"Babies are babies and they cry sometimes, it's annoying but it really can't be helped" is pretty clearly a part of gesunder Menschenverstand, i.e. it's a statement whose truth should be obvious to your neighbor if she stops and thinks about it. She clearly hasn't thought about it yet, so what to do?

The polite, diplomatic thing to do (again, in Swiss terms - the social rules are different here!) when somebody has missed something glaringly obvious is not to state it directly. This comes across as too confrontational, as if you are seeking to humiliate her by pointing out its obviousness and thus her ignorance. Nobody really wins that game.

Instead what you do is approach it obliquely, by stating a different but related truth ("we've all been there") which is something the neighbor can join you in acknowledging without conflict or loss of face - but which then encourages her to reflect on the universality of crying babies herself. If that doesn't work then yes, hit her with the blunt obvious truth. But it should be a last resort, not an opener.


2) Babies really are incredibly loud. At full volume, people in neighboring apartments will hear them. Even in a modern, well-constructed apartment block. If you are moving, better move to a detached house with no near neighbors.
Your idea of foam wallpaper is also at the very best a winter solution, once windows are opened in summer you'll all be back to square one.


3) Contra Urs Max, noise cases revolving around babies' cries are pretty clear-cut. According to the Mieterverband it's understood that a baby might scream at any time of day, for any length of time, and assuming when it happens the parents are making a reasonable effort to calm them (does not have to be a successful effort!) neighbors really do just have to put up with that. Noises from older children are where it starts to get hairy.
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  #26  
Old 19.05.2015, 23:34
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

The neighbour wants you to go out of the apartment. She prefer an empty apartement to live more quietly.

I think it is not a good idea to waste time talking with people who do not want to hear you. So if your neighbour don't want to understand the normal problems/noise in the childcare I think it is better just to ignore she.

If necessary , the next time say to her something like 'YES, My child cries a lot. Yes , my head will be blown, and the next time you called at the door for this reason I will call the police, due you are bothering us. OK?' and close the door.

I know it is not much polite, by some times is the best option.

Moving to a new apartment is not the solution, you could have other 'bad neighbour' in the new one , and then?.
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  #27  
Old 20.05.2015, 08:14
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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hey All.
i am writing asking for tips and suggestions. my neighbor above us is making me crazy. her complain us my child cries all day and she cant work, sleep etc etc.
all the more she stamps on the floor and makes me mad while i am trying to pacify a child who had a bad dream or is in pain due to teething.

i am really annoyed with her and would appreciate expert advice.


please asap
Can I complain about the grammar?
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  #28  
Old 20.05.2015, 08:32
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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Can I complain about the grammar?
Is that a rhetorical question?
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  #29  
Old 20.05.2015, 10:50
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

@is1107

As so often in this forum, this thread of yours has drawn all sorts of different reactions. Please don’t be put off by some which seem rude or aggressive, or which might not be your style. You've done well to ask for advice, and I hope you can choose the bits that feel right for you, and make your own way. So here's my contribution, to use or reject, whatever feels right for you.

If I were in your situation, I would want to find a long-term solution, and one which brings all parties the most peace. Baby is, after all, going to grow up and, in the course of her/his life, make other noises, too. For as long as you live there (or elsewhere with any other neighbours), it would be good to find a good way to live in peace.

First
make sure you’re learning (in general) about all sorts of ways to comfort Baby. You’re probably exhausted, yourself, if Baby is crying a lot. But it is worth finding someone who is experienced with babies, an older parent, a midwife in the area, etc. to see you both together, ideally in your home, and see whether she could teach you, with your baby (given her/his temperament, and yours) specific ways to calm Baby down.

Second
write a polite but short letter to your neighbour. Something like:
“I know you said that my baby’s crying disturbs you. And I’m really sorry about that. Of course, I’m doing everything I can to care for her/him. While she/he is so small, I need to put her/his needs first, but we would also very much like to have a good, peaceful neighbourly relationship with you. Could we please sit together to try to find a better way of living here together? Would you please call me on 999999999999 so we can set a time? Thanks very much.”
Oh, yes, and if your local Swiss language is not strong, write with broken usage, or google translate, or get someone to correct the text, and put the English in, too.

Third
If you and the neighbour meet, try to have someone else looking after Baby just then.
If you did find a midwife-type person, ask her to be there. In any case someone who will be there for you, and who can be trusted to stay calm and polite during the whole conversation, no matter what Neighbourlady says. (someone who has had more sleep than you are probably getting).

Ask Neighbourlady if there are specific times of the day during which peace and quiet mean more to her than at others. Perhaps, for example, she meditates from 5h to 6h, or likes to get herself in a good mood for the day with a quiet breakfast from 7h to 8h. Or gets home from work tired, yearning for quiet especially for the first hour from 18h to 19h. You do not have to (and should not and cannot!) promise that Baby will be asleep then. But if you knew exactly when she most cherished silence, you might consider taking Baby for a walk during those times. She would probably think you are fabulous for even considering the possibility!

And whatever you talk about with Neighbourlady, say at the end: “Oh, of course Baby is growing and changing, and we know that anything we try will be, at best, a solution for a few weeks or months. And you have my promise that I’ll try to do what I can. And as Baby grows, we’ll have to find new solutions. Thanks very much that we can talk openly.”


I’m aware that to some people taking such a tack might sound too sweet and soppy, but I don’t think you have anything to lose by it.
If you neighbour does not respond to your letter, or the conversation doesn’t lead her feeling better, and therefore stressing you less so you feel better, oh, well, at least you tried. If she then continues to stamp on the floor (if that is, in fact, the cause of the noise you are hearing) then you could write again to ask her to stop doing that.
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  #30  
Old 20.05.2015, 11:24
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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3) Contra Urs Max, noise cases revolving around babies' cries are pretty clear-cut. According to the Mieterverband it's understood that a baby might scream at any time of day, for any length of time, and assuming when it happens the parents are making a reasonable effort to calm them (does not have to be a successful effort!) neighbors really do just have to put up with that. Noises from older children are where it starts to get hairy.
It's obvious that children are noisy. Nevertheless there are limits, and the parents have to do their part. Telling the neighbor to f..k off or dismiss the complaints as irrelevant or ignore them is not a sign of the parents doing their part, particularly as apparently the neighbor does have a point. Also keep in mind that CH has no explicit cancel protection for families.

Thus as I already said, dialogue is key. Perhaps something as simple as changing rooms might help, but OP won't learn about that unless she asks.

Edit:
Nor will you learn about, as mentioned by doropfiz, about perhaps especially precious times.
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Old 20.05.2015, 12:51
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

Yes, Urs Max, I agree: "dialogue is key".
Just the other day, I read:
"A strong person knows how to knock an enemy down.
A smart person knows how to win an argument.
A wise person knows how to win peace for as many as possible."

Baby is going to grow up, and needs to be free, and also to learn, as she/he grows up, to behave respectfully and considerately. She/he will have a much happier childhood if any meeting with Neighbourlady, in the stairway, can be a friendly "Grüezi, Frau N," and Child (and parent) do(es) not have to live in constant fear of her complaints, because they will know, and Neighbourlady will have felt, that they are courteous folk.
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  #32  
Old 20.05.2015, 13:02
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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It's obvious that children are noisy. Nevertheless there are limits, and the parents have to do their part. Telling the neighbor to f..k off or dismiss the complaints as irrelevant or ignore them is not a sign of the parents doing their part, particularly as apparently the neighbor does have a point. Also keep in mind that CH has no explicit cancel protection for families.

Thus as I already said, dialogue is key. Perhaps something as simple as changing rooms might help, but OP won't learn about that unless she asks.

Edit:
Nor will you learn about, as mentioned by doropfiz, about perhaps especially precious times.
Let me guess, you have had a baby?
Complaining about a crying baby is imo extremely rude, especially as it is much more stressful for the ones being in the room for a baby than someone in another apartment.

Now an eye opener for everyone with no children: parents don't like it when a baby cries. They all wish it stops or never happens. They don't enjoy it.
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Old 20.05.2015, 13:28
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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.... [a baby crying] is much more stressful for the ones being in the room for a baby than someone in another apartment.

...
parents don't like it when a baby cries. They all wish it stops or never happens. They don't enjoy it.
Yes, I agree with these parts. Yes, certainly, the primary stress is with the parent or carer, who is trying to do her/his best at the moment. Others around, though they may feel driven to distracttion by the noise a baby or child makes, are merely second in line.

Those others, however, do also have needs, or at least wishes. My post was aiming at finding out what (or more specifically when) the Neighbourlady's need is, and trying to demonstrate an attitude of compromise towards trying to accommodate that, at least im part.

In my experience, knowledge about a situation can help to deescalate. Knowing when someone needs peace and quiet helps, and knowing when a noise is likely to happen (not possible, admittedly, with Baby, but more and more possible as Child grows up) helps, and knowing how long it will last.

Most especially, a neighbour (or train co-passenger) who knows and sees that those producing (or responsible for) the noise (or other disturbance) are genuinely trying to take steps to lessen the impact on others, that seems to make them less critical, less stampy-footy-on-floory, more tolerant, and sometimes even more helpful.
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  #34  
Old 20.05.2015, 13:33
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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Yes, I agree with these parts. Yes, certainly, the primary stress is with the parent or carer, who is trying to do her/his best at the moment. Others around, though they may feel driven to distracttion by the noise a baby or child makes, are merely second in line.

Those others, however, do also have needs, or at least wishes. My post was aiming at finding out what (or more specifically when) the Neighbourlady's need is, and trying to demonstrate an attitude of compromise towards trying to accommodate that, at least im part.

In my experience, knowledge about a situation can help to deescalate. Knowing when someone needs peace and quiet helps, and knowing when a noise is likely to happen (not possible, admittedly, with Baby, but more and more possible as Child grows up) helps, and knowing how long it will last.

Most especially, a neighbour (or train co-passenger) who knows and sees that those producing (or responsible for) the noise (or other disturbance) are genuinely trying to take steps to lessen the impact on others, that seems to make them less critical, less stampy-footy-on-floory, more tolerant, and sometimes even more helpful.
i think you miss the point a bit: you can't plan crying of a baby.
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  #35  
Old 20.05.2015, 14:13
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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Telling the neighbor to f..k off or dismiss the complaints as irrelevant or ignore them is not a sign of the parents doing their part, particularly as apparently the neighbor does have a point.
Worked for me, but my neighbor was full of shit.

Tom
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  #36  
Old 20.05.2015, 15:14
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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.... you can't plan crying of a baby.
Yes, you are right! That's why I wrote "...knowing when a noise is likely to happen (not possible, admittedly, with Baby, but more and more possible as Child grows up) helps".
I'm not saying, by any means, that Baby can be made to "not cry". Naturally the parents would be delighted if any of the steps they are taking would help Baby to feel soothed. Baby will cry, and must and should be allowed to cry when she/he needs so to do. And yes, no-one caring for a baby knows whether the things she tries will help Baby immediately or not. It's always a matter of trying one's best, and experimenting, to see what might help this time round.

My point was by no means that the crying of a baby could or should be planned. Not at all.

Instead, I meant that gathering information from anyone who is complaining (Neighbourlady) and supplying them with some, can be a first step to finding workable solutions. Sometimes people who are complaining really do lighten up when they understand the issue better. And the more so if they feel that some concession is being made in their favour, even if that compromise is very small.
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Old 21.05.2015, 11:50
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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Let me guess, you have had a baby?
Complaining about a crying baby is imo extremely rude, especially as it is much more stressful for the ones being in the room for a baby than someone in another apartment.

Now an eye opener for everyone with no children: parents don't like it when a baby cries. They all wish it stops or never happens. They don't enjoy it.
Kind of, an ex-GF had a 10-month baby when we moved together, the relationship lasted for three years. So yes I qualify.

How can you claim to know how stressful it is for the neighbor? Try to be less egocentric once in a while.

Many on here complain about passive-aggressive swiss behaviour, yet what is advocated here by most is exactly that. Having a crying baby doesn't give you the privilege to act like a <insert expletive>.

As for the rest:
doropfiz has said it already.
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  #38  
Old 25.05.2015, 19:31
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

Thanks a lot everybody. I will try them next time she comes to me complaining.
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Old 25.05.2015, 20:03
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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Also keep in mind that CH has no explicit cancel protection for families.
Depends on how you define "protection"; "Erstreckung" is possible which serves at least as a time buffer for up to four years (http://www.gerichte-zh.ch/themen/mie...streckung.html - this is federal law, by the way)

For the rest of your points - I fully agree: Communicate. Respect your neighbour, although your crying baby is loudest next to you.

Making a positive effort on your environment is what matters.
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Old 25.05.2015, 20:13
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Re: neighbo above complaining abt child

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Thanks a lot everybody. I will try them next time she comes to me complaining.
As it's just a matter of time you might just as well act now

By acting before she complains you prove you care.
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