Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Other/general
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 31.08.2015, 17:20
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,974
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,256 Times in 5,011 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

I'll try to give as full information as I can, but if I miss something important, let me know and I'll try to fill in the details.

My son order a suit for his wedding day (early July) from suitart.com, based on their reputation for good work and customer service. Also they are recommend by the Kantonal banks as a partner of the STUcard.ch. The suit was not delivered on time, and my son was promised a refund. This never arrived, despite repeated emails and calls. Eventually, the calls weren't answered, and the suitart.com site disappeared. (Fragments are visible if you google). Whois reveals that the owner is someone at suitart.ch. The person dealing with his order is on LinkedIn.

He has now received an email from someone purporting to be from the franchise. The original German (names redacted):
<representative from suitart.ch>, von der Zentrale von SuitArt. Leider mussten wir die Zusammenarbeit mit Herrn <vendor> beenden weil er diverse Kundenbestellungen nicht korrekt abgewickelt hat. Falls Sie bis jetzt immer noch keine Rücküberweisung erhalten haben würde ich ihnen raten Betreibung gegen ihn einzureichen unter <vendor, vendor address>

Warscheinlich werden Sie uns anfragen, ob nicht die SuitArt AG die Summe
zurücküberweisen kann. Da wir ein Franchisesystem sind und leider keine
Zahlung von <vendor> erhalten haben ist dies leider nicht möglich-
Sie müssen direkt gegen den Vertragspartner in diesem Fall <vendor>
vorgehen.

Ich möchte mich bei Ihnen ihm Namen von SuitArt herzlich für die dadurch
entstehenden Umtriebe entschuldigen.

Falls Sie Fragen haben stehe ich Ihnen jederzeit zur Verfügung.
Rough translation
<representative from suitart.ch> from the HQ of SuitArt. Unfortunately, we had to end our cooperation with <Vendor> because several customer orders were not handled correctly. If you still haven't received any funds, I suggest you issue a Betreibung at <Vendor address>

Probably, you want to know whether SuitArt AG can repay you the sum. Because we are a franchise system and we haven't received any payments from <Vendor>, unfortunately this not possible. You need to proceed directly against the contracting party, in this case <vendor>.

I want to apologise to you for him in the name of SuitArt, for the resulting activities.
At this point we've lost all trust with SuitArt entirely as a brand. For all we know <representative from suitart.ch> could be in on some scam with <vendor>! Strangely suitart.ch does not seem to be a website anymore - although it used to be. Tailorart.com is their new one.

Some questions

1. Can a franchise owner really disassociate themselves so much from the actions of their franchisees?
2. Is this fraud, or just bad business practice? (on the part of the franchisee)
__________________
In accordance with Political Correctness guidelines, I've checked my privileges and come to the conclusion that I'm awesome.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 31.08.2015, 17:34
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,974
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,256 Times in 5,011 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Additional: the address of the vendor given is Hauserstrasse 28, 4057 Basel. This address doesn't exist. 4057 is Klein Basel. There's a Felix Hauser Strasse, but that's in a completely different area of Basel. This makes me even more suspicious of the <representative of suitart.ch>.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 31.08.2015, 18:01
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,759
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,078 Times in 6,282 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

2 separate business, simple as that.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 31.08.2015, 18:03
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,974
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,256 Times in 5,011 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Quote:
View Post
2 separate business, simple as that.
That's what I think too. On the other hand, you'd assume that the franchiser would want to protect their reputation. When you buy from a franchise as a consumer, your perspective is that you're essentially buying from the brand.

What seems to have happened here is that the franchiser cannot be trusted to properly choose their franchisees, ensure they operate according to procedures and don't abscond with the customers' money.

Last edited by NotAllThere; 31.08.2015 at 18:19.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 31.08.2015, 23:03
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,759
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,078 Times in 6,282 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Quote:
View Post
That's what I think too. On the other hand, you'd assume that the franchiser would want to protect their reputation. When you buy from a franchise as a consumer, your perspective is that you're essentially buying from the brand.

What seems to have happened here is that the franchiser cannot be trusted to properly choose their franchisees, ensure they operate according to procedures and don't abscond with the customers' money.
If they wanted to own & control all the sale outlets they would. They don't choose the franchisees they sell to them.
Business's go bankrupt all he time, Ltd, PLC, AG, SA etc after a business name is a warning to people doing business with them that liability is limited to the companies assets.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01.09.2015, 07:25
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,974
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,256 Times in 5,011 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

In this instance the franchisee appears to be a sole trader - no limited liability. However, since the franchiser has given us a false incorrect address, it's kind of hard to go after the franchisee.

On the plus side, my son is safely and happily married.

Last edited by 22 yards; 01.09.2015 at 19:07. Reason: Punctuation
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01.09.2015, 08:45
TiMow's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fribourg
Posts: 9,310
Groaned at 292 Times in 196 Posts
Thanked 12,189 Times in 5,300 Posts
TiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Probably would have been better to visit a bricks and mortar establishment, for that .... um ..... More personal, hands-on experience.






...... I'll get my coat.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01.09.2015, 09:52
Sean Connery's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,924
Groaned at 75 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 6,395 Times in 2,931 Posts
Sean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

surely you formed a contract with the company that is now "disappearing". And surely that's where your Betreibung should be aimed at?

you have no contract with their 3rd parties in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01.09.2015, 10:45
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 1,158
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 596 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Quote:
View Post
1. Can a franchise owner really disassociate themselves so much from the actions of their franchisees?
2. Is this fraud, or just bad business practice? (on the part of the franchisee)
1. Legally - probably they can; but from a reputation viewpoint, no. You could write to the STUcard and the kantonal banks complaining about them recommending a fraudulent company; obviously you've also posted here, if they have a Facebook page you can post there as well.

2. Non delivery of something paid for is clearly fraud; even if they were bankrupt you should receive formal notification of that fact, and potentially how much if anything you can expect to get back.

Unless you paid cash you could raise the issue with your credit card, your bank or their bank.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01.09.2015, 10:50
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,759
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,078 Times in 6,282 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Quote:
View Post
1. Legally - probably they can; but from a reputation viewpoint, no. You could write to the STUcard and the kantonal banks complaining about them recommending a fraudulent company; obviously you've also posted here, if they have a Facebook page you can post there as well.

2. Non delivery of something paid for is clearly fraud; even if they were bankrupt you should receive formal notification of that fact, and potentially how much if anything you can expect to get back.

Unless you paid cash you could raise the issue with your credit card, your bank or their bank.
Failure to deliver is not clearly fraud, you entered into a contract, paid money & have to accept counter party risk.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01.09.2015, 11:48
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,974
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,256 Times in 5,011 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

It's not been established that it is fraud. it may simply be bad business. (Cashflow problems, business folds with debts).

The original suitart.com website (funny how it was taken down just about the time that the phone at suitart Basel no longer was being answered), gave the name of local outlets. So my son did go to an actual shop. Looking at the remains of suitart.com, there's a section which makes it clear that the franchisee is really just a salesman, and that the actual work is carried out by the franchisor.

The Google cache of www.suitart.com/de/franchise says:
Wie Sie mit SuitArt erfolgreich werden

Prestige. Kunst. Attitüde. Stil.
Das ist SuitArt.

Wirtschaftlich bedeutet SuitArt für Sie tiefe Risiken. Sie müssen nur einkaufen, was Sie bereits verkauft haben.
Dabei liefert Ihnen SuitArt das erfolgreiche Konzept und die Geheimnisse des Massanzugverkaufes.

Werden Sie ihr eigener Chef; mit SuitArt ist das ganz leicht.
Sie brauchen nichts, ausser einem Shop und Verkaufstalent. Den Rest erhalten Sie von SuitArt. SuitArt übernimmt für Sie sämtliche beiläufigen Aufgaben, die nichts mit dem Verkauf zu tun haben und bietet Ihnen eine internationale Marke, mit der Sie arbeiten können.


Translation:

How do you become successful with SuitArt?

Prestige. Art. Attitude. Style. That's SuitArt.

Economically SuitArt means low level of risk for you. You only need to buy what you have already sold. SuitArt provides you with the successful concept and the secrets of the tailor-made suit sale.

Become your own boss; with SuitArt that's easy.
You do not need anything, except for a shop and sales talent. The rest you get from SuitArt. SuitArt takes care of all casual tasks that have nothing to do with the sale, and offers an international brand with which you can work
__________________
In accordance with Political Correctness guidelines, I've checked my privileges and come to the conclusion that I'm awesome.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 01.09.2015, 13:57
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,974
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,256 Times in 5,011 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Interesting development. A young lady I know has told me that her father had SuitArt as an early client. They didn't pay him, and then offered him two suits in lieu of payment. And then disappeared... Don't know when this happened.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01.09.2015, 14:50
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 1,158
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 596 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Quote:
View Post
Failure to deliver is not clearly fraud, you entered into a contract, paid money & have to accept counter party risk.
OK, terminology difference I think.

Inability to deliver is probably not fraud. Shit happens, caveat emptor and all that.

Refusal to deliver or provide evidence of why they are unable to (e.g. bankruptcy) is different, a seller can't just bugger off with the money without good reason.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01.09.2015, 17:56
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,974
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,256 Times in 5,011 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Beware SuitArt franchise holder taking your money ... but who is liable?

Quote:
View Post
...

Refusal to deliver or provide evidence of why they are unable to (e.g. bankruptcy) is different, a seller can't just bugger off with the money without good reason.
This was the opinion of my non-lawyer Swiss colleagues. They reckoned it was a police matter.

We're trying to track the guy down.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who is liable to pay? carrerclan Insurance 12 07.05.2015 10:17
Taking time off if your kid is sick Fidgety Family matters/health 13 30.04.2013 10:19
Custodians - how safe is your money? Flower Finance/banking/taxation 0 30.09.2008 20:07


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0