Hi PoshPants,

I don't know how used you are to participating in forums but it is etiquette for the original poster to post the links to substantiate claims such as the ones you have made for the benefit of everyone. You will find around here that the more controversial your statement the more we will ask you to provide links. We like a good debate so don't be put off by this please.

As to your original questions! I find Switzerland a great place to bring up my kids, it's not perfect but we like the life here. We even tried going back to the UK for a while but ended up coming back here pretty quickly. I'm not sure what you mean by un-schooling but if it is the same as home schooling then there is a thread on that in the Family Matters section of the forum. It is also pretty normal for parents here to carry their baby whether in a carrier or a sling. I also know people who have co-slept with their children and no-one else cared. As for health visitors etc, you can have as much or as little involvement with the services available as you like. I have never found them to be intrusive but have been there when advice was needed.

A few links
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6297573.stm
http://www.aims.org.uk/ (they use frames, look under press releases)
http://www.aims.org.uk/pressReleaseHealthVisitors.htm


Hope that helps

Hi Posh, after reading one of your links it does sound quite alarming. On the other hand it seems like there are areas in England that are really lacking in any kind of support for the rights of children. I know personally of three children who didn't go to school for a year because their mother was mentally ill and wouldn't let them out of her sight. That wouldn't happen here.

An ex-girlfriend of mine worked in the Child Protection Team in a not very salubrious part of Essex. In the 18 months we were together, she uncovered an underage prostitution ring (set up by the parents) multiple cases of neglect & a rather famous one of Munchausen by proxy. The latter ended with our house being subject to demonstrations & brick throwing.

If the feeling is that Social Work departments working all hours of the day to protect childrens rights is invasive, whats the alternative ?

That said, I'm happy to be in Switzerland, as I don't think I've heard of one case of paedophilia, misuse etc with kids. What I do know is that none of the above would be possible here, due to the higher standards & the general awareness within communities.

In a neighboring town a couple of years ago a teacher was prosecuted for having fondled some of his students on school trips as well as having had placed a camera in the changing room for Turne/Sport and uploading the pictures of these girls (during the 4th-6th grade years) to the internet.

Does that count? I'll see if I can find links to the local newspaper articles about it.

I am a dual national (German/USA) and have spent long periods of time living in both the US and Germany. We (an ~ 50 y.o. gay couple, without children) left San Francisco two years ago after suffering from burnout after many years of working in the software industry there and have been travelling in Europe ever since, on a journey, trying to find the right place to live. Since we can work from home, as your husband does, it has placed us in to the same position you are in: Where would you live in the world, if you could choose?

Our travels so far have lead us from Portugal (specifically Lisbon), where we initially spent several months to a prolonged stay of over two years in southwestern France (in the Basque region). We have decided that while this is a wonderful place for vacation, we don't imagine we will ever 'feel home' here in France. Having known Switzerland from the many vacations my parents made here while I was a child, and given the changes in immigration rules, we are cosidering a move to either the Zurich or Bern areas to start our own little software firm.

What this journey, combined with my switching between Germany/USA several times during my life has taught me so far, is that it is very hard to anticipate the mentality of a place unless you have been there for a while. The main reason we are considering leaving France is the strong sense of 'you are not French' that I have encountered here. The language barrier is a part of that more than anything else, combined with the prejudices against things that are 'anglo-saxon'. While I speak very good French in general, I find it hard to find many people that will help me by meating me half-way. There are many French, so the need to speak English is much more contained to the few that need to deal with tourists. If you speak even broken French they immediately stop using English with you.

I believe this is generally true of those countries in Europe that were once dominant cultures: France, Germany, England and Britain, perhaps Italy. Those cultures have large bodies of literature and were never forced to integrate outsiders heavily. They have strong, very protectionist domestic markets, and as their cultural influence is now very heavily diminishing, they have somewhat of a complex about it. Each country reacts differently to this, but I would stay away from them.

The smaller countries, and particularly Switzerland, have always been 'multicultural' to some extent. They have smaller egoes. If you go visit Belgium or the Netherlands or Sweden many people speak excellent English and are willing to use it freely with you. I have a good friend in Belgium whose parents, well into their late 70's, even speak fragments of English even though it is a big stretch for them. What I'm trying to point out is that in some places people will try very hard to maike you feel welcome and in others they won't.

The other thing you might consider is that it may be very important for you to give your kids as much exposure as possible, based on your choices, to the outside world. The way I integrated in the US (as the child of two German speaking parents) was to totally become engaged and accepted by assimilating the language and culture in school until the age of twelve. My parents then moved back to Germany and I went through the reverse process of having to totally assimilate Germany, the nuances of its language, and its ways. These things put a great deal of stress on me as a child, and there were moments when I hated my parents for this. I just wanted to be American at one point, and later I just wanted to be German. Integrating the two is a challenge for anyone, as you might find for yourselves after being away from the US for a longer period of time (say 10+ years).

A last word about the Swiss: There are quite a few prejudices about them in the different countries of Europe and as with all prejudices, they hint at the root of some differences between cultures, while giving them a negative spin. But at the root there may lie some truth. The words efficient, orderly, perfectionist and reserved come to my mind first.

I don't know i this is true any longer, but it was also always said that the Swiss would not accept you as their own until you were there for a very long time. I hear this is changing, and the changes in immigration law seem to be along those ligns. But there is still a debate going on in the country about how to become part of the wider world in the age of globalization. There seem to be many projects in the financial and pharmaceutical industry that are run with English as the working language for whole project teams. There are entire recruiting firms where everyone speaks perfect English and it ia hard to tell if these are native Swiss or not.

I'll leave it at that for now... Have funn on your journey. And feel free to ask more details if you like ;-)

Cheers,
William

First - I would say, try not to take it personally if someone moves to "your" country, is (presumably) a productive member of society, tax paying, law abiding, etc., and then decides it's not for them, so proactively seeks to move somewhere else. While I lived there, many Brits complained to me about some of the same things Posh mentioned. So I would say, please chill and don't derail the thread into "debating life in the UK" when it's really about life in Switzerland, and Posh was only asked to clarify what she didn't like about the UK, so as to better advise her on the inquiries about Switzerland.

Now, as to your points above:

• I believe it is important to note that the washing rules vary according to the place that you live. For example, our apartment building has a separate wash room with own washer/dryer for everyone in the building (except the people in the penthouse). Only the people in the penthouse have washing time restrictions, because their machines are in their flat. The rest of us can (and do) wash and dry to our heart's content, 24/7, and even [gasp] on holidays!! No schedules, no sharing of machines, etc.
• Nothing about high heel time restrictions that I'm aware of in our house rules
• The no noise after 10 PM - well isn't that just civilised and considerate? I personally love that rule. And I find that the apartment is so well built, it's not an issue. I mean, it's not like we turn off our TV at 10:01 PM.
• We flush after 10 PM all the time and have yet to get a complaint.
• I'm curious as to your comment about "if you can get used to it, it's not such a bad place." I thought you were still in the UK, planning your move. Just wondering how you can speak from experience if you aren't here yet.

To anyone looking to rent, just read the fine print of your house rules in the lease, look at the physical set up, and make informed choices about what works for you. That's what it's really all about at the end of the day.

I'd like to understand what's petty about having rules that demands to be considerate to your neighbours? Unless you think that it's ok to start drilling, mown the law and even indulge in major repair work at 8am on a sunday because it's your house/flat and you can do whatever you want in it...

As a matter of fact, yes, I think it is OK. I'm sure a lot of people do, too.

After all, the churches think it is OK to ring their church bells in the mornings, don't they? They're just as disturbing to some as a lawnmower.

And people live busy lives, sometimes they need to get things done on Sunday, not live in an artificial bubble of depressing silence.

I think no noise after 10pm would be a g-d send! After having issues in the last 2 flats we were in, one a fancy, swanky LA one, were I could hear my upstairs neighbours breathe. And then in London were the guy next door seemed to have a flow of visiors from 11-1am everynight, and had very poor taste in music. I would always cringe see'ing people bringing in these huge 40 inch TV's with the whole speaker package, thinking if I can hear them walk, cough and fart (I kid you not!) What the heck is the TV going to sound like

Oh and no one cared, so the "rules" were meaningless.

Of course I would be annoyed if I got screamed at for my child waking up crying and when he was teething. But I assume there is little they can do, and it would show how insensitive they are.

Evil, between a bell ringing and some bloke drilling next door, you are not going to seriously suggest that the former is just as disturbing...

We all have busy lives and if I choose to spend mine having a lie-in on sunday morning because I have a social life and went to bed late, I do not bother anybody, unlike the guy drilling, banging and screwing next door...

Yep, I certainly am. I've been woken up by more church bells in Switzerland than I ever was by lawnmowers, etc. in the US or elsewhere.

Just because you want to sleep in on a Sunday doesn't mean we should all live in a monestary, either.

No one is asking for religious silence but a bit of respect for the peace of a sunday morning would not go amiss, I guess that I pay the price for living in a part of the country (subburban Cheshire...) where waking up early on sunday to indulge in DIY is more prevalent than go out and have fun on saturday, my mistake

I wouldn't want to live next door to anyone like that!

I have had the 7am on the weekend wake-up calls from the builders more than once, kind of annoying.

I think it's "OK" if you KNOW the people around you are OK with it, I use to turn my radio up when i would look out side and know everyone was out or at work. If the people next door are up and washing their car, then a bit of DIY isn't a problem, but from someone with a toddler, you do not want to wake up a few hours early, and the day is the ruined! People just don't understand that sometimes