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Old 20.12.2013, 03:52
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marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

Hello, I am an illegal alien established in Los Angeles, originally from El Salvador. I had to leave my country due to the gangs and the constant insecurity there.

I am getting married to a swiss man (from Neuchâtel) here in LA in summer 2014 and then move to NE with him. We have been spending a lot of money on flights, etc... and we can’t be separated anymore.

I have a few questions about it, though :

1) Once we are married, what is the next step to enter the country? Do I have to apply for the permit form my Home country? (I can’t really go there, my life is at risk) Or can I do it from LA, where I am illegally residing.

2) I know the canton (or the country) will enquire about me, in order to see whether it is a marriage for the papers, or a real marriage... Are they going to know that I am living here illegally? If they do, is it going to be a problem for us? Will it make the process take longer, or even make it impossible?

3) If all the above mentioned steps work as planned, what permit will I have in CH, and what will it allow me to do? Will I be allowed to work? Will I be able to go visit my family in LA?

Thank you for your time and your answers. This has been our dream for a long time, I’ve already started taking french lessons, so, hopefully I can find a job as soon as I get there…

All the Best,

Vanessa
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Old 20.12.2013, 09:03
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

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Hello, I am an illegal alien established in Los Angeles, originally from El Salvador. I had to leave my country due to the gangs and the constant insecurity there.

I am getting married to a swiss man (from Neuchâtel) here in LA in summer 2014 and then move to NE with him. We have been spending a lot of money on flights, etc... and we can’t be separated anymore.

I have a few questions about it, though :

1) Once we are married, what is the next step to enter the country? Do I have to apply for the permit form my Home country? (I can’t really go there, my life is at risk) Or can I do it from LA, where I am illegally residing.

2) I know the canton (or the country) will enquire about me, in order to see whether it is a marriage for the papers, or a real marriage... Are they going to know that I am living here illegally? If they do, is it going to be a problem for us? Will it make the process take longer, or even make it impossible?

3) If all the above mentioned steps work as planned, what permit will I have in CH, and what will it allow me to do? Will I be allowed to work? Will I be able to go visit my family in LA?

Thank you for your time and your answers. This has been our dream for a long time, I’ve already started taking french lessons, so, hopefully I can find a job as soon as I get there…

All the Best,

Vanessa
Not really sure anyone here can answer your questions. You and your fiance need to talk with the Swiss consulate in San Francisco and find out how best to proceed because you're in a very complex situation as far as I can see.

Consulate General of Switzerland in San Francisco
456 Montgomery Street, Suite 1500
San Francisco, CA 94104-1233
United States of America
sfr.vertretung@eda.admin.ch
www.eda.admin.ch/sanfrancisco

You can also find out more here about the visa procedure and what's needed:

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm...reise/faq.html

1) Normally you have to apply from your home country because that's usually where you're living. As an illegal resident I've no idea whether you can apply from the States.

2) Ask the embassy. I can't think it's going to help the situation though and could well cause problems. Be prepared for a long wait while they go through their processes.

3) You will get a one-year B permit which will be renewed annually. It might say on it that you can't work, but theoretically it can be changed if/when you find a job. Again check with the consulate on exactly what your situation will be. As for visiting your relatives you'll still be using your current passport, not a Swiss one, so you'd need to assess the risk of trying to go back. If the Americans know you've been there illegally you might be arrested when you try and enter again; at the least I think you'd be refused entry. If you can, wait until you can apply for and get Swiss citizenship, then you would be able to travel on a Swiss passport. But this will take some years and a lot of work on your part to integrate yourself into Swiss life by learning Swiss languages, history, etc.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm...uergerung.html

My advice is contact the consulate asap to find out what you're going to need to do to be able to come here. Because if they turn around and say no to your plans you're going to have to think the whole thing through again. You're not the typical applicant so everything is going to take longer so the sooner you start gathering info the better.

I hope it works out for you. Good luck.
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Old 23.12.2013, 12:35
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

Further to my post I found this on the New York Swiss consulate website:

"Only persons who have a legal residence status in the United States can apply for visas at Swiss representations in the United States (e.g. Green Card holders; F1 (I-20), H1B, G1, J1, etc.). Tourists and visitors on B1/B2 visas must apply in their country of residence. "

So contact the consulate in San Francisco asap because it's not going to be easy to sort out methinks.
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Old 23.12.2013, 13:40
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

My advice would have been "get a lawyer".
Maybe the consulate can recommend one?
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Old 23.12.2013, 14:48
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

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My advice would have been "get a lawyer".
Maybe the consulate can recommend one?
1. Consuls do not "recommend" lawyers. They provide lists of local lawyers who speak their language.

2. In this case, there are issues of international refugee law, US asylum law, and the Executive Order on undocumented aliens brought the USA as children.

3. The OP is not "resident in El Salvador". I think (as a former consul) that the requirement of legal (or rather non-transient) residence is designed to prevent forum shopping; only the Swiss consul can answer that question and it's best for the Swiss partner to do the asking.

4. There's a memento on the subject of marriage of Swiss abroad. Here's the link:
https://www.bj.admin.ch//content/dam...slandehe-f.pdf (French)
https://www.bj.admin.ch//content/dam...slandehe-d.pdf (German)
It says that the marriage must be registered with the Swiss consul abroad, and that the Swiss partner should address either the Office des migrations of the Swiss partner's commune of residence or the consul abroad regarding visas and residence matters.

5. The forms and instructions provided by the Swiss consular section in London to my (Swiss) daughter with respect to her marriage celebrated in the UK are these:
http://uniset.ca/misc/Doc4.doc
http://uniset.ca/misc/Heirat_Fragebogen_E_NEW.dot

Last edited by 5thSwiss; 23.12.2013 at 15:01.
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Old 23.12.2013, 15:10
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

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2. In this case, there are issues of international refugee law, US asylum law, and the Executive Order on undocumented aliens brought the USA as children.
What makes you think these are relevant? As I read the initial post, the OP seems not to have legal status as a refugee or an asylum seeker, and it's not clear she was brought to the US as a child either.
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Old 23.12.2013, 15:27
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

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What makes you think these are relevant? As I read the initial post, the OP seems not to have legal status as a refugee or an asylum seeker, and it's not clear she was brought to the US as a child either.
Because as a person licensed to practice law in a U.S. state who has written on the subject of nationality and migration (my PhD dissertation (for a European university) was on the subject; my LLM on the law of personal status and EU law), I know that it is, or could be, relevant. I have treatises on the subject on the bookshelf of my office here, and I have James C. Hathaway's "The Rights of Refugees Under International Law" as an ebook. We know that virtually all migrants from El Salvador seek asylum, and we also know the danger of a US resident of Salvadoran parentage encountering MS-13 thugs if deported http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13

There is a difference between refugee law (a matter of the Geneva and New York conventions) and asylum law (generally a domestic matter).

You don't seem to have legal training or you would not have opined on what is relevant and what is not. Nor perhaps have you seen the news about US immigration judges retiring and the immigration courts being backed up: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/h...etire-21302701 This too is relevant, more as strategy than substance. Read the article.

I really don't understand the purpose of your comment unless it is to denigrate the postings of others or to add to the OP's worry as to whether there is a ready solution to her problem. We don't, as you say, know that she came to the USA as a minor; but we also don't know the contrary.

For the record: countries are loath to document migrants as refugees because that gives them specific rights akin to some of those held by citizens, something governments don't want to see. Therefore a lesser status of "asylee" is offered at the discretion of bureaucrats and judges. Palestinians are also denied refugee status under the Conventions; they are the protégés of UNRWA rather than UNHCR. So you see: there is politics involved in this, diplomacy too, and not just black-letter law.

One of the main challenges of refugee and asylum law is where the threat to a migrant is not from government discrimination or abuse, but from private parties -- like MS-13. The question often is whether the government has failed in its duty or lacks the ability to protect. And also whether a protected quality is involved: "The 1951 Refugee Convention establishing UNHCR spells out that a refugee is someone who 'owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.'" There are sub-issues such as whether "internal flight" to another, safe, part of the country would have been possible. And, to posit a law-student type hypothetical suppose that a Swiss was being persecuted by her government for her (left-wing? Pirate Party?) affiliation. Under the Swiss treaties with the EU she would have the right (subject to certain conditions) to settle in any other EU/EEA/Swiss country. Thus she could be rejected for asylum in, say, the USA. Christoph Meili did get asylum in the USA but (1) that was in 1997, before the treaties and (2) he seems to have had the political support of Al D'Amato.

Last edited by 5thSwiss; 23.12.2013 at 15:50.
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Old 23.12.2013, 15:48
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

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You don't seem to have legal training or you would not have opined on what is relevant and what is not.
I think you'll find I didn't opine on what's relevant; I asked you on what basis you decided that X, Y, and Z are relevant.

You seem to have been reading between the lines based on some demographic assumptions ("virtually all migrants from El Salvador seek asylum") and that's the link in your reasoning that wasn't clear to me.
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Old 23.12.2013, 16:00
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

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I think you'll find I didn't opine on what's relevant; I asked you on what basis you decided that X, Y, and Z are relevant.

You seem to have been reading between the lines based on some demographic assumptions ("virtually all migrants from El Salvador seek asylum") and that's the link in your reasoning that wasn't clear to me.
It's statistically true that any Salvadoran who presented him- or herself to me when I practiced law would be considered as a potential asylee. Unless, like a Salvadoran who rented one of my Swiss vacation properties a year or so ago, he or she happens to be wealthy. Then an L or E or similar business or investor visa would be appropriate.

The problem the OP has, and she knows it, is that she is subject to the 10-year bar the moment she leaves the United States without advance parole. http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/jus...families-apart

Rightly or wrongly, since I've identified my credentials often enough on this Forum, I took your posting as sarcastic. I write (and take some trouble to attach links and sources) for the use of the OPs and those querying the archives with actual problems. I really shouldn't be asked to take the time to defend myself to others. Or don't you think?
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Old 23.12.2013, 16:02
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

Before we get into an argument about this, let me remind you that the OP is an illegal alien, not someone as far as we know who's applied for asylum or refugee status. So would it help her case if she applied for either/both of these or not? If it makes no difference, then what is the best legal way forward for someone who's an illegal alien in the US to marry and move to Switzerland with her husband?
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Old 23.12.2013, 16:17
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

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Before we get into an argument about this, let me remind you that the OP is an illegal alien, not someone as far as we know who's applied for asylum or refugee status. So would it help her case if she applied for either/both of these or not? If it makes no difference, then what is the best legal way forward for someone who's an illegal alien in the US to marry and move to Switzerland with her husband?
I have given my advice: That her status probably satisfies the Swiss consulate's requirement that she is not a transient (but that only by asking the consul can she be sure). That she is a potential asylee and that she cannot depart the country without facing a 10-year ban on returning should be answer enough.

But the interested party is not the OP, rather her fiancé. Only he has the "right" to consular services of his country including, of course, the right to sponsor his spouse.

If there are problems with the Swiss (I don't think there will be) then there is a workaround, and it's not to seek asylum in the USA, a drawn-out and potentially expensive procedure. Rather it's for the OP's fiancé to plan to establish himself (for employment, self-employment, investment ...) in another EU/EEA/Swiss country, say Germany or Britain, and then seek a gratis dependent visa (a "Surinder Singh" Schengen visa) for his spouse, live there six months, and then move back to Switzerland. http://www.jcwi.org.uk/blog/2013/04/...d-family-unity

The moral: for those with a bit of money and time there is most often an easy solution. The others are at the mercy of the bureaucrats. Sorry.

BTW: The USA is one of those countries where anybody who is free to marry can do so without regard to immigration status. Not so in the UK (but there's a workaround there too: marry in the Church of England rather than at a Register Office) or Switzerland.

She, and you, used the description "illegal alien". That's a pejorative term and I would not use it. "Undocumented migrant" is better. It avoids legal conclusions -- and that's exactly my point.

Last edited by 5thSwiss; 23.12.2013 at 16:29.
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Old 23.12.2013, 16:45
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

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Rightly or wrongly, since I've identified my credentials often enough on this Forum, I took your posting as sarcastic. I write (and take some trouble to attach links and sources) for the use of the OPs and those querying the archives with actual problems. I really shouldn't be asked to take the time to defend myself to others. Or don't you think?
Sorry dude, don't know you from Adam. I don't spend the time on here I used to.

Even if I did, the OP almost certainly doesn't, so time spent formulating your arguments in a way that doesn't hang them on your personal credentials is probably time well spent. Up to you though. Thanks for explaining your reasoning when I asked.
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Old 25.12.2013, 14:26
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

Hello everybody..

First of all, I want to thank you all for your time and your answers.

So, it seems like I have to provide more infos about myself :

My parents live un the USA legally, they came in the 90's and have a work permit. I did not come there as a child, I was already an adult. I haven't applied for either a refugee or an asylum status.

About what 5thSwiss said "3. The OP is not "resident in El Salvador". I think (as a former consul) that the requirement of legal (or rather non-transient) residence is designed to prevent forum shopping; only the Swiss consul can answer that question and it's best for the Swiss partner to do the asking."

The thing is that we are afraid to ask them the Swiss Consul, or the cantonal Office des Habitants or anything sort because we feel that it's like asking "I committed a crime, how can I get away with it? thanks".

We know they are enquiring about binational marriages in order to make sure it is not for the papers, yet I don't know what they are looking for exactly..

So, my first question would be :

Will they know for sure than I am illegally living in the USA?

About the 10-year ban from the USA, yes, it indeed seems like we can't get around it. Unless I leave the states the same way I came in, incognito... By going to Mexico, but it seems to be even more dangerous there than in LA regarding my situation.. If they catch me without a mexican visa, it's very likely that I'll be sent to a prison full of MS members, and honestly, with my situation, the way out will be really difficult.

If I have to be banned from 10 years in order to be allowed to live with my husband... then... I guess, so be it. if there is nothing I can do about it, there is nothing I can do! Though, I still hope there is a way. I can't live without seeing my mother for 10 years..

Also, about going back to El Salvador before coming to CH, as Medea Fleecestealer quoted, it's really impossible for me ! It is way too dangerous, there are even more Maras than before, everybody is getting robbed, whether it's in broad daylight or at night, kids or elder people... No one is safe. Especially if they know I've been living in the USA.. They know everything about everybody. As 5thSwiss stated, it is a real threat. Is applying for a refugee/asylum status the only way for me so I don't have to go back there?

so, my questions are :

1) Will CH know about me being illegally living in the USA? What infos are looking for?
2) Can I avoid this 10-year ban?
3) Can I avoid going back to El Salvador? -> asylum/refugee status?
4) General question from Medea Fleecestealer:
"(...) let me remind you that the OP is an illegal alien, not someone as far as we know who's applied for asylum or refugee status. So would it help her case if she applied for either/both of these or not? If it makes no difference, then what is the best legal way forward for someone who's an illegal alien in the US to marry and move to Switzerland with her husband?"

Again, thank you so much for your time.

I wish you all a merry Christmas.
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Old 26.12.2013, 10:10
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

I wish you the best of luck Pet&Van, can't help myself but wish you the best!
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Old 13.08.2015, 09:54
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

Hello everybody,

I am writing today to give you some news about my situation... 20 months later.

After those last messages in Dec 2013, my husband and I had been working a lot in order to make our story work... Working for money, for the immigration documents, fighting with the law... etc.

And in the end, it WORKED!

It was difficult, it took 6 months of paperwork and lawyer fees from the moment we got married, but we did it!

Here I am now, in that beautiful Switzerland, since Jan 2015.

If anyone is interested or if what we did could help anyone in the same situation, don't hesitate to write to us and we'll describe the whole process we had to go through.

Again, thank you, all of you, for reading and replying to my initial post.
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Old 13.08.2015, 10:06
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

Great news Pat&van. Congratulations, welcome to your new life in Switzerland.
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Old 13.08.2015, 10:11
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

Congratulations!
It must be a wonderful feeling not to have to look over your shoulder and know you can visit your family legally. I hope you settle in well in Switzerland and wish you and your husband all the very best.
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Old 13.08.2015, 16:51
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Re: marriage and immigration to CH as an illegal alien from US

Congrats! And thanks for the update!
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