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Old 08.09.2014, 17:41
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Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education institut

I am a Non-EU (and also NON US Canada nor Australian!!).
I have been in Switzerland since 2010 holding a B permit for doing a PhD at EPFL .(I receive salary). I will finish my studies next year and start a one year postdoc(5years phd+1 year postdoc)

Recently I read an interesting article on our school website:

http://carriere.epfl.ch/files/conten...ates%20_EN.pdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are the legislative changes in vigor since 1 January 2011?
There are four changes which specifically concern non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher
education institution:

• Years spent studying in Switzerland may now be taken into account in obtaining a permanent residence permit (C permit) if a residence permit (B permit) was held for at least two consecutive years. This also applies to EU-17 and EFTA citizens.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Now after this law is passed, How long does it take for me to obtain a C permit? ?
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Old 08.09.2014, 18:04
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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I am a Non-EU (and also NON US Canada nor Australian!!).
I have been in Switzerland since 2010 holding a B permit for doing a PhD at EPFL .(I receive salary). I will finish my studies next year and start a one year postdoc(5years phd+1 year postdoc)

Recently I read an interesting article on our school website:

http://carriere.epfl.ch/files/conten...ates%20_EN.pdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are the legislative changes in vigor since 1 January 2011?
There are four changes which specifically concern non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher
education institution:

• Years spent studying in Switzerland may now be taken into account in obtaining a permanent residence permit (C permit) if a residence permit (B permit) was held for at least two consecutive years. This also applies to EU-17 and EFTA citizens.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Now after this law is passed, How long does it take for me to obtain a C permit? ?
For non-EU, you have two paths paths for C permit.

-----------------------------
Path 1 (normal path):
10 = 5 + 5 years residence in Switzerland.
The first 5 years you have to live in Switzerland with a permit (L, student... everything counts).
The second 5 years you have to live in Switzerland with a B permit. Here, time spent as students does not count, unless if after you graduate you have been working on a "regular" B permit* for 2 years.

*Depending on the canton, B permit grounded for postdoc position might or might not count as a "regular" B permit.

-----------------------------------------
Path 2 (quicker path based on good integration):
http://www.vd.ch/themes/vie-privee/p...is-c-anticipe/
If you can prove your good integration (you mainly need a language certificate), you can ask for C permit after 5 years' "regular" residence** in Switzerland.
**Depending on the canton, B permit grounded for postdoc position might or might not count as a "regular" permit. Student B permit is almost sure not considered.

-----------------------------------------
As you entered Switzerland in 2010 and will finish your study in 2015, only the second path is possible in the near future. Suppose that you work from 2015 to 2017 continuously as postdoc, then in 2017 you MIGHT be able to ask for a C permit, if:
1. you can show good integration (A2 French level) + some other standards.
AND
2. your canton considers both your student permit (2010-2015) and postdoc permit (2015-2017) for the early C permit. However, this chance is rather low (I don't think they will consider a postdoc permit, let alone a student permit).

Please call your cantonal immigration office to clarify.
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Old 09.09.2014, 01:16
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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How long does it take for me to obtain a C permit? ?
To get a C permit (the normal way), you need to have held a B permit for the last 5 years. Only after you have held a "normal" B permit for two years, the preceding time on a student B permit counts.

Unfortunately, your permit during the postdoc will likely be no better than one you have got right now. It will probably still be a temporary permit limited to "education". In other words, the time on the postdoc permit will only be counted towards a C permit after you have held a "normal" B permit for two years. You get the idea.

Unless one knows what happens after the postdoc, there is little chance to predict when you can apply for a C.

Pessimistic scenario:
If you are unfortunate to get an L permit after the postdoc, you will need five more consecutive years on a B permit in the future.

Optimistic scenario:
You get a job and a "real" B permit immediately after your postdoc. You ought to be able to apply for an "early" C permit after your 8th year here.

Best case:
Become a professor after your PhD, you get the C permit right away.


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Depending on the canton, B permit grounded for postdoc position might or might not count as a "regular" permit.
All cantons should apply the same rules to count the years. Of course, the duration of residence is only a single criterion out of many and indeed, a lot may depend on the particular canton in the end.
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Old 09.09.2014, 01:36
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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For non-EU, you have two paths paths for C permit.

2. your canton considers both your student permit (2010-2015) and postdoc permit (2015-2017) for the early C permit.
For PhD students, the permit they get is not a student permit. It is a work permit. To be a PhD student, you have to be hired as a research assistant by the university. At least, this is the case for EPFL.
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Old 09.09.2014, 10:31
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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For PhD students, the permit they get is not a student permit. It is a work permit. To be a PhD student, you have to be hired as a research assistant by the university. At least, this is the case for EPFL.
It is still a student permit, but with a special permission for working as an assistant, which is usually considered as an integral part of the PhD study. The work permit is not a "real" work permit because it does not use the quota. Therefore it is not considered as a normal B when counting the years.
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Old 09.09.2014, 11:04
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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For PhD students, the permit they get is not a student permit. It is a work permit. To be a PhD student, you have to be hired as a research assistant by the university. At least, this is the case for EPFL.
FOM has an explanation on this with regard to PhD and postdoc.
https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam...ngen-aug-f.pdf

Extraction from section 3.4.3.3 which covers the C permit for EU/EFTA nationals after 5 years residence.

Original version:

Ne sont pas pris en compte dans le calcul du délai de cinq ans les séjours en Suisse à caractère temporaire (formation, études, traitement médical, cure, séjour de courte durée, etc.). En revanche, les séjours effectués à des fins de formation ou de perfectionnement sont comptabilisés lorsque, une fois ceux-ci achevés, l’étranger a été en possession d’une autorisation de séjour durable pendant deux ans sans interruption (cf. art. 34, al. 5, LEtr).

Pour cette raison, les séjours que les ressortissants UE/AELE effectuent en tant que doctorant ou post-doctorant ne sont pas pris en considération lors du calcul du délai de cinq ans vu que leur séjour est considéré comme temporaire. Toutefois, si le doctorant ou le post-doctorant possédait, pendant son activité scientifique, un contrat de travail (activité lucrative supérieure à quinze heures par semaine), le séjour est compté si l’activité scientifique est suivie d’une prise d’emploi dans l’économie privée ou l’administration publique. La règle est valable également lorsque l’intéressé poursuit son activité scientifique au lieu où il a accompli sa formation ou son perfectionnement (doctorat/post-doctorat). Outre le séjour prévu (cinq ou dix ans selon la nationalité du requérant), l’octroi de l’autorisation d’établissement suppose l’existence d’un contrat de travail portant sur un engagement d’une durée supérieure à une année.

Les doctorants et les post-doctorants possédant un contrat de travail (portant sur plus de quinze heures hebdomadaires) sont considérés comme travailleurs au sens du droit communautaire. Si, au terme de leur activité scientifique, il y a prise d’emploi comme mentionné ci-dessus et qu’ils sont par conséquent intégrés sur le plan professionnel, il n’y a pas de raison de les pénaliser par rapport aux autres travailleurs étrangers qui ont travaillé en Suisse pendant le même laps de temps.

Les ressortissants des autres Etats peuvent obtenir, en principe, l’autorisation d’établissement après un séjour régulier et ininterrompu de dix ans.

Google translation (with my hand-correction for major errors):

residence in Switzerland on a temporary basis (training, education, medical treatment, cure, short stay, etc.) is not taken into account in computing the period of five years. In contrast, stays for the purpose of training and development are recognized when, once they have been completed, the alien was in possession of a "long" residence permit for two years without interruption (cf. art. 34 , al. 5 FNA).

For this reason, residence of the EU / EFTA nationals engaged as a PhD student or post-doc are not considered when calculating the five years since their stay is considered temporary. However, if the student or postdoc possessed during his scientific activity, employment contracts (greater than fifteen hours per week paid employment), the stay is counted if the science is followed by taking up employment in the private sector or government. The rule also applies when the person continues his scientific activity at the place where he completed training or education (PhD / postdoc). Besides the planned stay (five to ten years depending on the nationality of the applicant), the granting of permanent residence permit requires the existence of a contract of employment for a commitment for a period exceeding one year.

PhD students and postdocs with an employment contract (covering more than fifteen hours per week) are considered employees within the meaning of Community law. If at the end of their scientific activity, there taking up employment as mentioned above and are therefore built on a professional level, there is no reason to penalize them in relation to other workers foreigners who have worked in Switzerland for the same length of time.

Nationals of other States may obtain, in principle, C permit after a regular and uninterrupted stay of ten years.
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Old 09.09.2014, 11:06
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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FOM has an explanation on this with regard to PhD and postdoc.
https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam...ngen-aug-f.pdf

Extraction from section 3.4.3.3 which covers the C permit for EU/EFTA nationals after 5 years residence.

Original version:

Ne sont pas pris en compte dans le calcul du délai de cinq ans les séjours en Suisse à caractère temporaire (formation, études, traitement médical, cure, séjour de courte durée, etc.). En revanche, les séjours effectués à des fins de formation ou de perfectionnement sont comptabilisés lorsque, une fois ceux-ci achevés, l’étranger a été en possession d’une autorisation de séjour durable pendant deux ans sans interruption (cf. art. 34, al. 5, LEtr).

Pour cette raison, les séjours que les ressortissants UE/AELE effectuent en tant que doctorant ou post-doctorant ne sont pas pris en considération lors du calcul du délai de cinq ans vu que leur séjour est considéré comme temporaire. Toutefois, si le doctorant ou le post-doctorant possédait, pendant son activité scientifique, un contrat de travail (activité lucrative supérieure à quinze heures par semaine), le séjour est compté si l’activité scientifique est suivie d’une prise d’emploi dans l’économie privée ou l’administration publique. La règle est valable également lorsque l’intéressé poursuit son activité scientifique au lieu où il a accompli sa formation ou son perfectionnement (doctorat/post-doctorat). Outre le séjour prévu (cinq ou dix ans selon la nationalité du requérant), l’octroi de l’autorisation d’établissement suppose l’existence d’un contrat de travail portant sur un engagement d’une durée supérieure à une année.

Les doctorants et les post-doctorants possédant un contrat de travail (portant sur plus de quinze heures hebdomadaires) sont considérés comme travailleurs au sens du droit communautaire. Si, au terme de leur activité scientifique, il y a prise d’emploi comme mentionné ci-dessus et qu’ils sont par conséquent intégrés sur le plan professionnel, il n’y a pas de raison de les pénaliser par rapport aux autres travailleurs étrangers qui ont travaillé en Suisse pendant le même laps de temps.

Les ressortissants des autres Etats peuvent obtenir, en principe, l’autorisation d’établissement après un séjour régulier et ininterrompu de dix ans.

Google translation (with my hand-correction for major errors):

Are not taken into account in computing the period of five years residence in Switzerland on a temporary basis (training, education, medical treatment, cure, short stay, etc.). In contrast, stays for the purpose of training and development are recognized when, once they have been completed, the alien was in possession of a permanent residence permit for two years without interruption (cf. art. 34 , al. 5 FNA).

For this reason, residence of the EU / EFTA nationals engaged as a PhD student or post-doc are not considered when calculating the five years since their stay is considered temporary. However, if the student or postdoc possessed during his scientific activity, employment contracts (greater than fifteen hours per week paid employment), the stay is counted if the science is followed by taking up employment in the private sector or government. The rule also applies when the person continues his scientific activity at the place where he completed training or education (PhD / postdoc). Besides the planned stay (five to ten years depending on the nationality of the applicant), the granting of permanent residence permit requires the existence of a contract of employment for a commitment for a period exceeding one year.

PhD students and postdocs with an employment contract (covering more than fifteen hours per week) are considered employees within the meaning of Community law. If at the end of their scientific activity, there taking up employment as mentioned above and are therefore built on a professional level, there is no reason to penalize them in relation to other workers foreigners who have worked in Switzerland for the same length of time.

Nationals of other States may obtain, in principle, permit after a regular and uninterrupted stay of ten years.
My interpretation of the above text is:

There is a derogation for EU/EFTA nationals, where their residence as PhD student of postdoc counts for the 5 years' residence for C permit, if in the same time they have a working contract over 15hrs/week.

For other nationals, this does not apply.
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Old 09.09.2014, 12:04
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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It is still a student permit, but with a special permission for working as an assistant, which is usually considered as an integral part of the PhD study. The work permit is not a "real" work permit because it does not use the quota. Therefore it is not considered as a normal B when counting the years.
It is kinda stupid because while considering it student type permit; paying retirement insurance (it doesn't make sense if they recognize it as only temporary stay), health insurance like work permit holders (with new law), and not having most of other student advantages.
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Old 09.09.2014, 12:23
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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It is kinda stupid because while considering it student type permit; paying retirement insurance (it doesn't make sense if they recognize it as only temporary stay), health insurance like work permit holders (with new law), and not having most of other student advantages.
Every one (well, almost) living in Switzerland with an income pays for retirement pensions and health insurance, no matter the residence is considered temporary or not, and student is no exception (and students already benefit a lower premium for health insurance).
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Old 09.09.2014, 12:33
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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Every one (well, almost) living in Switzerland with an income pays for retirement pensions and health insurance, no matter the residence is considered temporary or not, and student is no exception (but student already benefit a lower premium for health insurance).
I don't mean students don't pay, they pay much less:
An average student health insurance is: 75 chf * 12 + 100 chf (franchise)
An average PhD insurance with new law is: 250 chf * 12 + 2500 chf (franchise)

Well for retirement whether students pay or not: Paying retirement pensions for a temporary stay, where you'll not retire, does not make sense (Especially if this is what your permit says). But I heart at least, they put an option to get retirement pensions back when you leave the country.
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Old 09.09.2014, 12:47
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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I don't mean students don't pay, they pay much less:
An average student health insurance is: 75 chf * 12 + 100 chf (franchise)
An average PhD insurance with new law is: 250 chf * 12 + 2500 chf (franchise)

Well for retirement whether students pay or not: Paying retirement pensions for a temporary stay, where you'll not retire, does not make sense (Especially if this is what your permit says). But I heart at least, they put an option to get retirement pensions back when you leave the country.
Of course you will get back (most of) the retirement pensions you paid if you leave Switzerland definitely, otherwise it is robbery.

Paying retirement pensions where you will not retire is totally reasonable. Before you retire you will never know where you retire. On the other hand it is not uncommon that a person works in many countries through his life. You cannot say at 50 yo that "OK this *should* be my last country now I start to pay the pension..."
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Old 09.09.2014, 12:58
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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Of course you will get back (most of) the retirement pensions you paid if you leave Switzerland definitely, otherwise it is robbery.

Paying retirement pensions where you will not retire is totally reasonable. Before you retire you will never know where you retire. On the other hand it is not uncommon that a person works in many countries through his life. You cannot say at 50 yo that "OK this *should* be my last country now I start to pay the pension..."
Most of people have some plans moreless. In my opinion, for a person, who is going to live in different countries, paying his own individual retirement account in a bank makes much more sense rather than paying these pensions to different countries and then deal with official stuff to get them back. As a matter of fact, if you do not make a bank retirement insurance, you'll just collect some money everytime you leave a country; you'll not be retired eventually.
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Old 13.04.2015, 11:23
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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My interpretation of the above text is:

There is a derogation for EU/EFTA nationals, where their residence as PhD student of postdoc counts for the 5 years' residence for C permit, if in the same time they have a working contract over 15hrs/week.

For other nationals, this does not apply.
Does this also apply to USA and Canadian nationals? Just curious, if after doing 5 years of paid PhD research and/or a post-doc, could they receive the Permit C because they are not "penalized with respect to other foreign workers" and according to the aforementioned treaties workers from those countries can receive the Permit C after 5 years. Section 3.4.3.3 states:
PhD students and postdocs with an employment contract (covering more than fifteen hours per week) are considered employees within the meaning of Community law. If at the end of their scientific activity, there taking up employment as mentioned above and are therefore built on a professional level, there is no reason to penalize them in relation to other workers foreigners who have worked in Switzerland for the same length of time.
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Old 22.04.2015, 12:40
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

Hello Everybody

I did my masters in Zurich (2006-07) with 1 yr L permit.

I did my Phd in Geneva (2008-13) with 5 yr B (student) permit.

I am now working in Sion (postdoc,private research institute 2014-15) with 1 yr L permit, which could be renewed up to 3 years.

Any chances I can apply for the C permit? When? I am Asian.

Best
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Old 23.04.2015, 01:00
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Re: Permit C for non-European holders of a degree from a Swiss higher education insti

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Any chances I can apply for the C permit? When? I am Asian.
Ethnicity doesn't matter, only nationality. Assuming you are a citizen of an Asian country, you will need 10 years as a standard non-EU, without the North American bilateral agreement which allows after 5 (non-student?) years. But if you pass a certification test for a national language and show integration you might be able to apply for a Permit C sooner. Probably good questions for the Gemeindehaus and/or a Swiss lawyer if what they say doesn't make sense.
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