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Old 28.12.2014, 19:39
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Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

Hi everyone and happy holidays!

I have searched the web and the forum but didn't find an answer to my question, probably someone could guide me?

The situation is as follows - my husband is invited to work in a CERN project and we are moving with our children. I understand that under the new law we don't qualify for naturalization, but our son is getting 10 soon and is entering the 'double up' period which will hopefully allow him to accumulate 10-12 years of continuous stay in Geneva.

Will he be able to apply for naturalization independently from us given that we are on a Ci, or is it the same 'no' for kids?

Thanks for your help!

Natalia
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Old 28.12.2014, 20:17
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

I would think if he's got a Ci permit then the answer will be no as well. It won't matter that he's a child as it's the permit type that counts. Applicants must have a C permit. I'm not fully au fait with the new law though so there may be an exception in there somewhere.
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Old 28.12.2014, 21:16
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

Under the new (2014) law -- which is not yet in force, but presumably will be within a year or two (autumn 2016 is the projected date that has been mentioned in other threads) -- any applicant for regular naturalization will need to have a C permit. There is still a provision for "double credit" for young people between the ages of 8 and 18, but the new C permit requirement would be the catch.

Last edited by jhm3; 28.12.2014 at 23:50. Reason: Correction: C permit required for *regular* naturalization
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Old 28.12.2014, 21:25
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

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any applicant for naturalization will need to have a C permit.
Surely this will not apply to Facilitated Naturalisation?
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Old 28.12.2014, 21:41
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

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Surely this will not apply to Facilitated Naturalisation?
It doesn't.

Tom
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Old 28.12.2014, 21:52
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

Maybe Wikipedia can help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_nationality_law
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Old 28.12.2014, 22:18
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

Not really as it doesn't mention anything about the Ci permit side for the 2014 law changes.
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Old 28.12.2014, 22:21
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

Here ?

https://www.ch.ch/en/renewal-overvie...idence-permit/
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Old 28.12.2014, 22:36
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

Nope. That's all about the current law, not about the changes which will be coming into force with the new one.

Iirc from my reading on threads here on the forum though, dropping the right of carte de legitimation holders to apply for naturalisation was one of the measures in the new law. So I assume that will also apply to Ci holders as well as the other types we don't normally hear about: "D", "E", "I", "L" and "P".
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Old 29.12.2014, 13:53
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

To be precise, what the yet-to-be-implemented 2014 law says, in Art. 9, section a, is that applicants for regular naturalization must have an "autorisation d'establissement" rather than an "autorisation de sejour" (or, in the Italian, a "permesso di domicilio" rather than a "permesso di dimora"). I'm not sure what the equivalent terms in German would be, but it's basically the distinction between a "settlement" or "permanent resident" permit on the one hand and any kind of temporary permit on the other.

One question would be whether anything other than a C Permit is considered to be an "autorisation d' establissement." I don't think so, and section 1.2.3.1 of the 2011 Message from the Federal Council on the draft citizenship bill that was passed into law appears to state fairly specifically that the purpose of the new provision is to restrict eligibility to C permit holders, as they have the "most stable" and established status, as opposed to other permit holders, including B permit holders and carte de legitimation holders. There is no specific reference to Ci permits there, so that's something to clarify, but I'm guessing their situation would be considered analogous to that of carte de legitimation holders.

In any case, that document (the message from the Federal Council) makes for interesting reading if anyone really wants to look into the logic behind specific provisions in the new law. It's available in the Swiss national languages at http://www.admin.ch/opc/it/classifie...0/history.html.
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Old 29.12.2014, 14:03
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

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To be precise, what the yet-to-be-implemented 2014 law says, in Art. 9, section a, is that applicants for regular naturalization must have an "autorisation d'establissement" rather than an "autorisation de sejour" (or, in the Italian, a "permesso di domicilio" rather than a "permesso di dimora"). I'm not sure what the equivalent terms in German would be, but it's basically the distinction between a "settlement" or "permanent resident" permit on the one hand and any kind of temporary permit on the other.

One question would be whether anything other than a C Permit is considered to be an "autorisation d' establissement." I don't think so, and section 1.2.3.1 of the 2011 Message from the Federal Council on the draft citizenship bill that was passed into law appears to state fairly specifically that the purpose of the new provision is to restrict eligibility to C permit holders, as they have the "most stable" and established status, as opposed to other permit holders, including B permit holders and carte de legitimation holders. There is no specific reference to Ci permits there, so that's something to clarify, but I'm guessing their situation would be considered analogous to that of carte de legitimation holders.

In any case, that document (the message from the Federal Council) makes for interesting reading if anyone really wants to look into the logic behind specific provisions in the new law. It's available in the Swiss national languages at http://www.admin.ch/opc/it/classifie...0/history.html.
Under the Foreign Nationals Act the autorisation d'establissement is a C permit, the sejour is a B and the court durée is an L. So it's quite clear that C permit holders are the only ones who'll be able to.

Looking at the Google translation the new act has removed all other permits from the citizenship application except for the C. Currently iirc you can apply if you have a B permit or carte de legitimation providing you meet the rest of the criteria.

http://translate.google.ch/translate...df&prev=search

Last edited by Medea Fleecestealer; 29.12.2014 at 14:32. Reason: Added info
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Old 30.12.2014, 08:29
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

I agree with others.

Once the new nationality law comes in to effect (late 2016), anyone who applies for regular naturalization must have a permit C (only permit C, not including Ci). The only exception seems to be same-sex partners of Swiss nationals, which is clearly not relevant here.

If your child can apply for naturalization before the new law comes into force, do it.
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Old 30.01.2015, 07:08
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

Thank you everyone for the answers!

Just to double check - in case we still move to Geneva, stay here on Ci, and then eventually (well, who knows) get B and C from a different company, or our kids successfully integrate and get a job offer and get their own docs, the years spent on Ci will be taken into consideration if they apply for naturalization?
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Old 30.01.2015, 10:23
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

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Thank you everyone for the answers!

Just to double check - in case we still move to Geneva, stay here on Ci, and then eventually (well, who knows) get B and C from a different company, or our kids successfully integrate and get a job offer and get their own docs, the years spent on Ci will be taken into consideration if they apply for naturalization?
The years spent in Switzerland will be taken into account, so long as they were done when the applicant held a valid permit (Limited leave to remain is only counted in half, e.g. 4 years would be counted as 2). The only matter will be that your children will be ineligible for apply for naturalisation without a C permit.
I would also specify that Geneva's own nationality law already requires a C permit for naturalisation.
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Old 30.01.2015, 11:01
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

From what I can see from the translation link of the document further up the minimum for a child will be 6 years residency.

"... the time that the applicant spent in Switzerland between the ages of 8 and 18 years count double. Effective stay, however, must have lasted at least 6 years."
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Old 30.01.2015, 12:04
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

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The years spent in Switzerland will be taken into account, so long as they were done when the applicant held a valid permit (Limited leave to remain is only counted in half, e.g. 4 years would be counted as 2). The only matter will be that your children will be ineligible for apply for naturalisation without a C permit.
I would also specify that Geneva's own nationality law already requires a C permit for naturalisation.
As far as I can see, the Ci permit is classified as a "residence permit," so time spent with one would count towards the residence requirement for naturalisation. As noted, under the new law, you (or your kids) would need to have a full C permit when you apply, though.

Just to clarify about the kinds of stays in Switzerland that only get half-credit towards the residence requirement -- that applies to cases in which people have been granted "provisional admission," meaning, for example, that they might be unsuccessful asylum seekers who can nonetheless not be returned to their home countries (for any of a variety of reasons) and have therefore been granted an F permit. I'm not sure if any other permit categories are classified as "provisional" in this way, but a Ci surely wouldn't be.
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Old 30.01.2015, 14:01
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

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As far as I can see, the Ci permit is classified as a "residence permit," so time spent with one would count towards the residence requirement for naturalisation. As noted, under the new law, you (or your kids) would need to have a full C permit when you apply, though.

Just to clarify about the kinds of stays in Switzerland that only get half-credit towards the residence requirement -- that applies to cases in which people have been granted "provisional admission," meaning, for example, that they might be unsuccessful asylum seekers who can nonetheless not be returned to their home countries (for any of a variety of reasons) and have therefore been granted an F permit. I'm not sure if any other permit categories are classified as "provisional" in this way, but a Ci surely wouldn't be.
Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean to suggest that a Ci permit was an F permit. I just mentioned it to be thorough, in case someone else would read the thread later on. ^^
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Old 30.01.2015, 16:09
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

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Surely this will not apply to Facilitated Naturalisation?
Absolutely not. I was accorded facilitated naturalisation (at that time when, I think, 3 years of residence were asked for, not sure) based on 27 months as an accredited diplomat (to GATT but accreditation was to the UN) plus months spent as a vacationing student (but without any proof) 30 years earlier living with my grandfather in Zurich, and frequent other trips "too numerous to list".

When my daughter very recently sought (and received) facilitated naturalisation only 3 visits in 10 years were required. When she mentioned that during my tenure in Geneva she was a student the consular officer initially wanted documentary proof of her status (she had none, she was a dependent over 18 and it was not a Swiss university). Moral: don't volunteer information, at least not if it isn't essential to the case.
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Old 30.01.2015, 16:23
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

OP it is nice you want to explore options, but I think it's far too early at this point. You're not even in Switzerland yet. The law is in flux right now and could well change again by the time you've been here for 5 years (which would give your son 10 under the double-up rule for naturalization).

At the moment he will need a C permit before applying for naturalization, and the double-up years don't count toward that (i.e. he can't be here just 2.5 years and count it as 5 to apply for C). He might need to stay in the same municipality for a few years, so if you move during that time the C-permit clock could reset, etc.

I'd hate to see you get your hearts set on a quick and easy naturalization, only to see the goalposts move. Keep your eye on it of course, but don't feel like the answers are set in stone (yet).
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Old 30.01.2015, 21:11
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Re: Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit?

I agree with what 3Wishes said. you don't qualify because you haven't the minimum accumulated residence, in the country, the canton or the commune. When you have the residence time, your permit won't qualify for naturalization.

When you start living in Switzerland, your husband and yourself will be under a Carte de légitimation (which you, as a spouse, can exchange for a Ci if you want to work). Your children will definitely get a Carte de légitimation as well.

Under the (still current) law, CL is a valid permit to apply for nationality. But you don't have the minimum time of residence.

By the time you have the minimum time of residence, the law will have changed, and you (and your children) will need a C permit to apply for naturalisation.

I don't know if the rules regarding granting residence permits to children of CERN staff are the same as for international civil servants. From what I gather, your child could apply for a C permit when he reaches age 21, and then apply for naturalization.
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