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  #21  
Old 04.01.2015, 12:42
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I think a C permit is more valuable than a UN job unless you are P3 or higher
Thank you asianm. Indeed, I am in the Professional grade at the levels you indicate. I don't expect to get another UN job in my lifetime if I chuck the present one. Anyone who has applied for one will know how near impossible it is to get it. And most people don't leave voluntarily seeing as it got many fringe benefits which not many employers can offer.

It's a tough call but somehow I got to make a choice. Still hopeful someone in the CH bureaucracy will see the justice in letting me keep my job rather than fall back on taxpayer's money.

I doubt if anyone would take kindly to giving me leave of absence but that's an avenue to explore. As to coming back to CH and asking for another 4 years to go abroad, I think that's a no no judging from the fellow I spoke to last December in Lausanne.

I hope to get ( or mightily push) for an answer this coming week and perhaps pay them a visit as has been suggested here. I am also talking to the folks at ODM in Berne.

Frightful way to start a new year

Last edited by 3Wishes; 04.01.2015 at 14:17. Reason: merging successive posts and fixing quoting
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  #22  
Old 04.01.2015, 17:57
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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It's a tough call but somehow I got to make a choice. Still hopeful someone in the CH bureaucracy will see the justice in letting me keep my job rather than fall back on taxpayer's money.
You might need to think a bit differently. Laying odds on 'good will' from the Swiss bureaucracy - which answers to the Swiss voters in these anti-immigrant times - is a bit naive.

Rather, concentrate on what's in it for Switzerland. Can you see a situation where Switzerland comes out a winner by allowing you to keep your permit? That is what you need to emphasize.

I've know a few people who worked abroad while keeping Swiss residency. The key here is residency - that is, while working abroad they did not need to deregister but rather they kept the 'center of their lives', that is their families and primary residence, here in Switzerland commuting back and forth frequently. Most importantly these folks kept paying taxes to Switzerland during that time. Yes it cost a fair chunk o' change, especially if the second country did not have some sort of tax agreement - but that was the price of keeping the Swiss permit.

So present your case with the emphasis on showing how it is in Switzerland's (financial) interest, showing how you can be a positive contributor to Switzerland, if allowed to maintain residency.

Wishing you all the best.
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  #23  
Old 04.01.2015, 18:33
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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So present your case with the emphasis on showing how it is in Switzerland's (financial) interest, showing how you can be a positive contributor to Switzerland, if allowed to maintain residency.

Wishing you all the best.
You maintain residency by never leaving, the OP left a long time ago....... fairly obvious it's 'game over'
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  #24  
Old 04.01.2015, 18:51
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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You maintain residency by never leaving, the OP left a long time ago....... fairly obvious it's 'game over'
I'd usually agree, but as OP claims he/she will be stateless if the permit is not renewed, I think there's a teeny tiny chance the authorities will at least allow him/her to move back to Switzerland rather than become stateless. It seems unlikely they will just renew the permit and put it on hold again, though.
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  #25  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:37
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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So present your case with the emphasis on showing how it is in Switzerland's (financial) interest, showing how you can be a positive contributor to Switzerland, if allowed to maintain residency.

Wishing you all the best.

Thank you meloncollie! You make a very good point. Perhaps I am counting on my luck too much but believe it or not, the CH bureaucracy has been kind to me when everyone else told me my request was impossible to grant. Alas I am of little value to CH. As a UN employee, I do not pay taxes even if I wanted to. And as I have already said elsewhere, my request to contribute to AVS was denied. Assuming I get a negative answer, then the most sensible thing to do is what you suggested others do " commuting back and forth"

Last edited by 3Wishes; 04.01.2015 at 19:58. Reason: fixed quoting
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  #26  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:47
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

Hi Eras,

Rather than taking the advice of armchair lawyers on EF would it be more sensible to seek the advice of a lawyer with experience in this field? A good lawyer might also have direct line to someone at the immigration office who csm make a decision, plus might be better placed to help you navigate the whole process.

Reading this thread, I don't think we have your full story - which makes it even more difficult to give any useful advice - even though any advice you receive on EF will be worth what you paid for it.

I would hate for you to follow incorrect advice from EF and end up in a worse situation.

Cheers,
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  #27  
Old 05.01.2015, 12:17
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

Thanks Nick, getting a lawyer is what I plan on doing though I did have to wait for some response or other from the government to my request. Anyone know good immigration lawyers I could contact in the event this becomes necessary?

I value very much the thoughtful suggestions and comments I have received since starting this thread. Nick, what would you say is missing from my story so I can do the square thing and fill in the gaps.

Many thanks
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  #28  
Old 05.01.2015, 13:38
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

Just a thought, as your employer is the UN could they contract you from their Swiss headquarters and not the Rome one?

If you are a valued employee then they may be able to alter the terms of your contract.

Speak to HR

Good luck anyway.
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  #29  
Old 05.01.2015, 14:12
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

Thanks Onei

That would have been the most logical thing to do under the circumstances. I am in HR as a matter of fact but things aren't that simple. A problem like mine lends itself to diplomacy and gentle persuasion with the Swiss I think and not with my employer, the latter having no interest whatsoever in helping me with my immigration problems.
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  #30  
Old 05.01.2015, 14:27
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

I would suggest getting a time machine, going back in time and then never de-registering from Switzerland. That will allow you to work as long as you need in Italy without Switzerland being any wiser.

Maybe you can still do this now and move back and get your C permit, but maybe you've already given the game away.
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  #31  
Old 05.01.2015, 15:37
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

Still am I missing the point, being there missing info to this story, indeed.
What is the real problem? That OP's family would lose residence in CH and would have to move to Italy?

Anyhow, G Permit / Grenzgänger would not do the trick, as non-EU have to live and work in the border zone for getting one.



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Nick, what would you say is missing from my story so I can do the square thing and fill in the gaps.

Many thanks
I'm not Nick;

but haven't your family a C permit, too? Why shall they leave Switzerland if on a C?
Why couldn't they get a permit in Italy, in case, and put their C 'on hold'?
Why would you lose property in Switzerland?
Do you (and your family) have the chance to get Italian citizenship?
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  #32  
Old 05.01.2015, 15:50
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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Still am I missing the point, being there missing info to this story, indeed.


What is the real problem? That OP's family would lose residence in CH and would have to move to Italy?


Anyhow, G Permit / Grenzgänger would not do the trick, as non-EU have to live and work in the border zone for getting one.
The OP and his family have refugee status in Switzerland. If/when his contract in Rome finishes he loses the right to live there. So if he loses his residency right in Switzerland he's back to being stateless, presumably with no place he can apply for refugee status again - at least not in the EU.

You're right about the border zone for the G permit though, I'd forgotten that requirement for non-EU's.
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  #33  
Old 05.01.2015, 16:13
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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The OP and his family have refugee status in Switzerland.
...
Which means they don't have C?

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If/when his contract in Rome finishes he loses the right to live there.
...
Shouldn't be like this, particularly after 4 years of high-skilled work. Italy is much more generous with permits than Switzerland or Germany, e.g.

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...
So if he loses his residency right in Switzerland he's back to being stateless, presumably with no place he can apply for refugee status again - at least not in the EU.
...
I.e. without his residency in Switzerland he cannot work or apply for refugee status in Italy?
Sounds very confusing to me ...
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  #34  
Old 05.01.2015, 18:28
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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Which means they don't have C?


Shouldn't be like this, particularly after 4 years of high-skilled work. Italy is much more generous with permits than Switzerland or Germany, e.g.


I.e. without his residency in Switzerland he cannot work or apply for refugee status in Italy?
Sounds very confusing to me ...
Refugees are not allowed to earn a C? Surely they have the same right as anyone to one if they meet the requirements.

I assume working for the UN doesn't count at least not when he doesn't have another job in Italy to fall back on. Isn't that the way it works in Switzerland? If you have a Ci and can find another job here you can convert the permit, but the Ci permit doesn't allow you to continue to live here if you lose your UN job.

Iirc you're supposed to claim asylum in the first EU country you reach, although that's not always the case (migrants at Calais come to mind). But having been granted refugee status and residency rights in an EU country after some years I would find it very strange that you could go to another EU country and claim asylum again. But I'm making an assumption so maybe you can.
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  #35  
Old 05.01.2015, 22:03
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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Refugees are not allowed to earn a C? Surely they have the same right as anyone to one if they meet the requirements.
...
I hope this is true;
but if it is and his family are C-permit holders, which is the problem exactly, please (OP did not answer this question yet)?
If they are not on social welfare for an extended period of time, they cannot lose C, independently from any question of OP's status in Italy, South Africa or Argentina.

In case OP lost his UN job at Rome, couldn't he then join his C-Permit family in Vaud, in any case?
If his family put their Cs on hold, why couldn't they join him at Rome? Why has he no good permit Italy offers to quite every immigrate from everywhere, not talking about those with high-skilled jobs?
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  #36  
Old 05.01.2015, 22:26
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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I hope this is true;
but if it is and his family are C-permit holders, which is the problem exactly, please (OP did not answer this question yet)?
If they are not on social welfare for an extended period of time, they cannot lose C, independently from any question of OP's status in Italy, South Africa or Argentina.

In case OP lost his UN job at Rome, couldn't he then join his C-Permit family in Vaud, in any case?
If his family put their Cs on hold, why couldn't they join him at Rome? Why has he no good permit Italy offers to quite every immigrate from everywhere, not talking about those with high-skilled jobs?
Yes he did. He put his C permit on hold for 4 years when he took the job with the UN in Rome. His contract has now been extended past the 4 year maximum for holding a permit. Unless he returns to Switzerland to live/work he will lose it. As will his family as their permits are dependent on his.

Whether he would be able to get a residence permit in Italy or not I don't know.
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  #37  
Old 05.01.2015, 22:50
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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Yes he did. He put his C permit on hold for 4 years when he took the job with the UN in Rome. His contract has now been extended past the 4 year maximum for holding a permit.
...
I understood that he did that (don't understand why he didn't get permits for his family, though).
But his family, if I got it right, did not join him so far. As still in Vaud. Maybe I missed something here.


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...As will his family as their permits are dependent on his.
...
Really? Does a dependent C exist?
I was convinced you cannot lose a C (also family members cannot; work, income, nationality and that stuff not being of importance for a C, once you already have it), unless for deregistration or being permanently on social welfare. Or criminal activity and stuff like that. Does dependent citizenship exist?
I thought that that a so far non-resident spouse of a C-holder or a Swiss would first get a B, not C, nor citizenship. But I digress.


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Whether he would be able to get a residence permit in Italy or not I don't know.
Do you think he has been working in Rome's UN base for 4 years without any permit?
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  #38  
Old 06.01.2015, 08:31
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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I understood that he did that (don't understand why he didn't get permits for his family, though).
But his family, if I got it right, did not join him so far. As still in Vaud. Maybe I missed something here.



Really? Does a dependent C exist?
I was convinced you cannot lose a C (also family members cannot; work, income, nationality and that stuff not being of importance for a C, once you already have it), unless for deregistration or being permanently on social welfare. Or criminal activity and stuff like that. Does dependent citizenship exist?
I thought that that a so far non-resident spouse of a C-holder or a Swiss would first get a B, not C, nor citizenship. But I digress.



Do you think he has been working in Rome's UN base for 4 years without any permit?
The OP hasn't clarified whether he holds a C or a Ci permit. I'm assuming it's a Ci as he's working for the UN. In which case their permits are dependent on his.

Permit Ci (residence permit with gainful employment)
The residence permit with gainful employment is intended for members of the families of intergovernmental organisations and for members of foreign representations. This concerns the spouses and children up to 25 years of age. The validity of the permit is limited to the duration of the main holder's function.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...lt_erwerb.html

So unless the wife/children have independent permits their right to live here would end at the same time his does is my understanding of the above. Children over 25 would need to find their own employment or further education here to allow them to continue living in Switzerland or return to their home countries as the Ci would no longer be available to them.

Again I assume the permit he has for Italy is only valid so long as he works for the UN. Whether, if/when his contract ends, he would be able to apply for another job in Italy without difficulty or whether he'd face similar problems to non-EU's/refugees in Switzerland in getting hired I don't know.
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  #39  
Old 06.01.2015, 09:49
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

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Really? Does a dependent C exist?
I guess a dependent C does exist. My husband and kids were all granted C permits upon arrival in Switzerland two years ago. The kids' permit surely are dependent on their dad's since we don't fulfill the 5-year requirement. I was issued a non-dependent B.
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  #40  
Old 06.01.2015, 11:28
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Re: Losing Permanent Residence

what nationality is the OP? Does anyone know?

The commuting to Rome during the week and spending the weekends at the family home......I assume this is possible if not inconvenient but maybe in this case a little too late. What is the status of the permits for the family right now?

The OP will also be free in the future to return to his home country too, I assume? I don't get the talk of stateless. And he currently is not without residency but in fact is resident in Italy, surely?
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