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  #21  
Old 09.01.2015, 23:34
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...further up the page people wrote that it is up to the employer to PROVE that he REALLY did not find Swiss/EU nationals.
Suppose he does that? that is my point. then what? my point is basically, all this talk about you need to have a degree in " XYZ", that no Swiss /EU has ever obtained........................ see my point? some rare degree in some rare field? some specialist that is hard to find....? really?I mean really?

Then about the quota, what do you mean by "eligible for a permit"?
You quoted the proper text at the top of the page, and have turned around and interpreted it out of context. The rule doesn't say employers have to go to the ends of the earth. It doesn't mean they need to take out full-page ads in every major newspaper in Europe. Or that the candidate has to have the only degree of its kind ever issued. Stop twisting it because it's not that hard.

It just says they have to prove they've made a diligent search for a Swiss, EU, or other person already here with a permit. They need to advertise on major job sites, interview several candidates, etc. and then explain to the authorities why the other candidates were not suitable. Sometimes there are no other applicants, even after months. Sometimes they need fluent Chinese or another language. There are a lot of variables. So don't convince yourself you're never going to get a job because you're not superman. Just realize it will take time and could be a bit of a challenge.

Regarding quotas and eligibility: Quotas limit the total number of permits that can be issued, regardless of how many people might be eligible (i.e. offered a contract). I don't think they've ever been reached, but someone else might be able to confirm that. In theory, you could be offered a job contract in December, but the quota has already been reached so you would not receive a permit then. The employer would have to apply again in the new year.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 09.01.2015 at 23:51. Reason: fixed error
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  #22  
Old 09.01.2015, 23:39
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

If an employer can prove his case then they'll get permission to hire you. It's not rocket science and is made clear in the FOM page you quoted from. It's also proved by the fact that many non-EU's do get permission to work here.

Let's use the hotel scenario and your language skills as an example. Say you speak English, German, French, Mandarin and Russian. An hotel might be able to make a good case for employing you that the authorities would accept.

Say now that your languages are English, German, French, Italian and Spanish. No way could an hotel make a case to hire you because there would be plenty of Swiss/EU nationals they could hire first.

It all depends on what the job is, what skills/qualifications/experience you can bring to that job and also how well the employer can put their case over.
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  #23  
Old 10.01.2015, 00:12
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If an employer can prove his case then they'll get permission to hire you. It's not rocket science and is made clear in the FOM page you quoted from. It's also proved by the fact that many non-EU's do get permission to work here.

Let's use the hotel scenario and your language skills as an example. Say you speak English, German, French, Mandarin and Russian. An hotel might be able to make a good case for employing you that the authorities would accept.

Say now that your languages are English, German, French, Italian and Spanish. No way could an hotel make a case to hire you because there would be plenty of Swiss/EU nationals they could hire first.

It all depends on what the job is, what skills/qualifications/experience you can bring to that job and also how well the employer can put their case over.
Thanks, but I don't agree that there is no way that the hotel could make a case if my languages were the ones that were common (which they are not), BECAUSE what if NOBODY applied with English, German, French, Italian and Spanish at the time I did??
Then he could not hire them. See my point?
Thank you!

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You quoted the proper text at the top of the page, and have turned around and interpreted it out of context. The rule doesn't say employers have to go to the ends of the earth. It doesn't mean they need to take out full-page ads in every major newspaper in Europe. Or that the candidate has to have the only degree of its kind ever issued. Stop twisting it because it's not that hard.

It just says they have to prove they've made a diligent search for a Swiss, EU, or other person already here with a permit. They need to advertise on major job sites, interview several candidates, etc. and then explain to the authorities why the other candidates were not suitable. Sometimes there are no other applicants, even after months. Sometimes they need fluent Chinese or another language. There are a lot of variables. So don't convince yourself you're never going to get a job because you're not superman. Just realize it will take time and could be a bit of a challenge.

Regarding quotas and eligibility: Quotas limit the total number of permits that can be issued, regardless of how many people might be eligible (i.e. offered a contract). I don't think they've ever been reached, but someone else might be able to confirm that. In theory, you could be offered a job contract in December, but the quota has already been reached so you would not receive a permit then. The employer would have to apply again in the new year.


Thank you for clarifying a bit.

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1… you only have to do a search on here for American/US/FATCA etc to see many Americans have had problems.

2… A word of warning if you want to live in Europe… Europeans can't stand an American with attitude, that thinks they are superior because they are American… I promise you!
thanks for your well-meant advice, but don't have an attitude at all, I don't like the arrogant answer of some people on here regarding my "freelance" status on my profile, that's not appropriate or funny, at all.
I am not new to living in Europe at all, lived here half of my life already, and that includes CH, FYI.
thanks though, I will tell my other American friends who may not be familrar with Europe.

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So you're here as a tourist looking for jobs? Nothing wrong with that. In fact it can be helpful to be here on the ground when you are applying.

To get back to your original question, which I did answer but not completely, it is true that you either fit the rules or you don't. BUT...there's more than one rule that can be applied.

For example, if you are married to a Swiss citizen or an EU citizen with a work permit here, you generally have the right to a "family reunification" permit - which includes working privileges and then the employer does not need to do anything special. I'm American married to a Swiss and any potential employer can hire me straight away. No need to jump through hoops.

PS - Check your attitude at the door, please. We are trying to offer you helpful information.

PS2 - See here for info on the quotas: CH reduces non EU permits for 2015 Note that these do not apply to those under family reunification permits
not sure what you are talking about referring to me having an attitude
some people on here think they can say anything they want, or be sarcastic, or rude. obviously not-so-nice comments are not tolerated.
but thanks for your other comments

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So you're here as a tourist looking for jobs? Nothing wrong with that. In fact it can be helpful to be here on the ground when you are applying.

To get back to your original question, which I did answer but not completely, it is true that you either fit the rules or you don't. BUT...there's more than one rule that can be applied.

For example, if you are married to a Swiss citizen or an EU citizen with a work permit here, you generally have the right to a "family reunification" permit - which includes working privileges and then the employer does not need to do anything special. I'm American married to a Swiss and any potential employer can hire me straight away. No need to jump through hoops.

PS - Check your attitude at the door, please. We are trying to offer you helpful information.

PS2 - See here for info on the quotas: CH reduces non EU permits for 2015 Note that these do not apply to those under family reunification permits


thanks, and yes, it is obvious that you or any foreigner will be allowed to work once married to a citizen of that country- nothing surprising here, the same is true if you marry a US citizen in America, you get a (temporary)Green card right away

Last edited by 3Wishes; 10.01.2015 at 15:30. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #24  
Old 10.01.2015, 07:02
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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Thanks, but I don't agree that there is no way that the hotel could make a case if my languages were the ones that were common (which they are not), BECAUSE what if NOBODY applied with English, German, French, Italian and Spanish at the time I did??
Then he could not hire them. See my point?
Thank you!
Then why did you come on here asking for advice if you are not willing to listen?

The thing you'll learn very quickly about Switzerland, is no matter how much sense something will make to you, the authorities will often see otherwise… and believe me, there is no changing their minds!!
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Old 10.01.2015, 08:11
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

Quite early on in the thread you made this post - I don't think many people would read that w/o sensing "an attitude", being on the defensive and shouting about it. Many people in areas of work/knowledge that are not clearly defined or easily slottable into job descriptions suddenly go "freelance". If someone says they are consulting there is a subtle implication they are that much closer to the job market or do work in that capacity, whether self-employed or through a firm.

FYI, being able to speak foreign languages is not that unique this side of the pond, particularly English, so even if you think that is special it isn't really. Many of younger generations who immigrated (or have parents who did) have grown up speaking language of "new" country, learning English at school (if not UK) and the languages their parents speak (quite often more than one depending on origin).

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you may wanna rethink before posting this kind of answer.
There are plenty of EVERYTHING, from corporate bla bla, to Google employees, to IT professionals, to highly skilled XYZ. NO profession is so unique that NO EU OR SWISS nationals can be found.
THAT WAS MY QUESTION, and NOBODY ADDRESSED IT.





and oh, just to give you another response to your not-so-smart answer, who told you I had a profession that one could ONLY and SOLELY freelance in?
I speak German, English, French, and 2 other languages fluently, in case you care. Wonder how many languages you speak.....?

cheers
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Old 10.01.2015, 09:29
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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Then why did you come on here asking for advice if you are not willing to listen?

The thing you'll learn very quickly about Switzerland, is no matter how much sense something will make to you, the authorities will often see otherwise… and believe me, there is no changing their minds!!

you didn't get my point maybe.
I was referring to the point made about the languages, the example given about the 4 common languages. I was saying that IF the employer has nobody applying to a specific job in a specific time (regardless of HOW COMMON the languages are in CH or the EU!) THEN he can obviously not hire a local person.
That was my whole point - not to change anybody's mind.
Of course I know the Swiss authorities and how they are, I already mentioned that I lived here before
I just never worked here.
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Old 10.01.2015, 09:32
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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you didn't get my point maybe.
I was referring to the point made about the languages, the example given about the 4 common languages. I was saying that IF the employer has nobody applying to a specific job in a specific time (regardless of HOW COMMON the languages are in CH or the EU!) THEN he can obviously not hire a local person.
That was my whole point - not to change anybody's mind.
Of course I know the Swiss authorities and how they are, I already mentioned that I lived here before
I just never worked here.
You obviously know bugger all about Swiss employment and non Swiss/EU people.
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Old 10.01.2015, 09:42
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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Quite early on in the thread you made this post - I don't think many people would read that w/o sensing "an attitude", being on the defensive and shouting about it. Many people in areas of work/knowledge that are not clearly defined or easily slottable into job descriptions suddenly go "freelance". If someone says they are consulting there is a subtle implication they are that much closer to the job market or do work in that capacity, whether self-employed or through a firm.

FYI, being able to speak foreign languages is not that unique this side of the pond, particularly English, so even if you think that is special it isn't really. Many of younger generations who immigrated (or have parents who did) have grown up speaking language of "new" country, learning English at school (if not UK) and the languages their parents speak (quite often more than one depending on origin).


yes I did make this post -- BUT only in response to someone who made a not-so-appropriate comment about "freelance" (and no, I am not a consultant, I have an advanced university degree)

Also, it is not true that knowing 5 languages is not special in Europe.
I have Swiss friends who claim on their resume that they speak 4 languages, yet when you go deeper into it, they can only speak one of the language at a basic "tourist" level.
(ordering pizza in Italy, maybe a bit more...). you get my point.
I can write books in all the languages that I claim to master.
not being pretentious or having any attitude or anything like that, but simply stating a fact.
thank you for your comment
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  #29  
Old 10.01.2015, 09:46
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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you didn't get my point maybe.
I was referring to the point made about the languages, the example given about the 4 common languages. I was saying that IF the employer has nobody applying to a specific job in a specific time (regardless of HOW COMMON the languages are in CH or the EU!) THEN he can obviously not hire a local person.
That was my whole point - not to change anybody's mind.
Of course I know the Swiss authorities and how they are, I already mentioned that I lived here before
I just never worked here.
Sure. It is theoretically possible if the company can not find a Swiss/EU/Permit holder who speaks those 4 common languages, the employer may try to apply to hire a non-EU that does.

The issue is that the authorities could very well tell the company they haven't looked hard enough then the employer will have to go back and start the search again.

So. Now I think no one really knows what your questions is. What was your question again?

YES an employer CAN hire a non-EU in certain circumstances, which seems quite clear as there are non-EUs here. NO, Americans do not have special status as they do in German.
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Old 10.01.2015, 09:49
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

Your profile says you are "freelance" - unless you offer clarification as to the capacity in which you freelance or the type projects you have been paid to do, there isn't much basis for anyone to know what you do. Many people say they are freelance as it feels better than saying they actually have an education in whatever field (not infrequently arts/languages etc) but can't find a job.

Most of the consultants I know have at least one advanced university degree if not more...

...and as for the languages, Switzerland is not Europe (I know you know this) but swarming about the continent are many talented, educated people who count languages as a skill, but not the sole reason someone woukd employ them.

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yes I did make this post -- BUT only in response to someone who made a not-so-appropriate comment about "freelance" (and no, I am not a consultant, I have an advanced university degree)

Also, it is not true that knowing 5 languages is not special in Europe.
I have Swiss friends who claim on their resume that they speak 4 languages, yet when you go deeper into it, they can only speak one of the language at a basic "tourist" level.
(ordering pizza in Italy, maybe a bit more...). you get my point.
I can write books in all the languages that I claim to master.
not being pretentious or having any attitude or anything like that, but simply stating a fact.
thank you for your comment

Last edited by Tasebo; 10.01.2015 at 10:01.
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  #31  
Old 10.01.2015, 09:49
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You obviously know bugger all about Swiss employment and non Swiss/EU people.



I don't understand your comment.........
I simply said that someone made a not-so-appropriate comment about my "freelance" status on my profile. I did not like that, and mentioned that I lived in Switzerland myself before, I KNOW the country and the people.
I simply never worked here.

that freelance status is no longer valid anyway, since I am not currently working anyway, so what's the point?

cheers!

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Sure. It is theoretically possible if the company can not find a Swiss/EU/Permit holder who speaks those 4 common languages, the employer may try to apply to hire a non-EU that does.

The issue is that the authorities could very well tell the company they haven't looked hard enough then the employer will have to go back and start the search again.

So. Now I think no one really knows what your questions is. What was your question again?

YES an employer CAN hire a non-EU in certain circumstances, which seems quite clear as there are non-EUs here. NO, Americans do not have special status as they do in German.
THANK YOU. you did answer my question. finally someone!

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Your profile says you are "freelance" - unless you offer clarification as to the capacity in which you freelance or the type projects you have been paid to do, there isn't much basis for anyone to know what you do. Many people say they are freelance as it feels better than saying they actually have an education in whatever field (not infrequently arts/languages etc) but can't find a job.

Most of the consultants I know have at least one advanced university degree if not more...

maybe that is true for those people who can't find jobs...
but since I am not working right now anyway (freelance or otherwise)....I deleted the word "freelance", since it does not apply anymore.
I didn't wish to reveal my profession, so here you go.
Thank you for your comment

Last edited by 3Wishes; 10.01.2015 at 15:32. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #32  
Old 10.01.2015, 10:25
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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I don't understand your comment.........
I simply said that someone made a not-so-appropriate comment about my "freelance" status on my profile. I did not like that, and mentioned that I lived in Switzerland myself before, I KNOW the country and the people.
I simply never worked here.

that freelance status is no longer valid anyway, since I am not currently working anyway, so what's the point?

cheers!
I've read this thread through twice and completely agree with you!
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Old 10.01.2015, 10:46
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

So you're American and you're here. Nice.

Do you have a permit?

If someone applied for a job under me and had no permit to be in the country yet was in the country, they would likely end up getting no further as non-EU. I would not even consider interviewing.

Why?

Because unless they had a good reason for being here, they are showing signs of not following the rules.

Language is no differentiator in Switzerland, by the way - I know many people fluent in at least 3 languages if not more.

So what magical skills do you have bar wanting your opinion to be agreed with?
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Old 10.01.2015, 11:20
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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So you're American and you're here. Nice.

Do you have a permit?

If someone applied for a job under me and had no permit to be in the country yet was in the country, they would likely end up getting no further as non-EU. I would not even consider interviewing.

Why?

Because unless they had a good reason for being here, they are showing signs of not following the rules.
As long as he has not over stayed his 90 days there is nothing wrong with him being here nor looking for a job while he's here.

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Language is no differentiator in Switzerland, by the way - I know many people fluent in at least 3 languages if not more.
Exactly this. I speak 5 and no one cares. No one is in anyway impressed because everyone speaks a bunch of languages and in much more impressive combinations.

And funnily (or not?) enough no one is particularly impressed in the US either because they don't believe anyone needs to speak anything but English. Sigh.

Sometimes I wish I had studied rocket science instead of languages.


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So what magical skills do you have bar wanting your opinion to be agreed with?
Is that a skill? Can I put that on my CV?
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Old 10.01.2015, 11:22
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

He's not allowed to look for a job according to his "tourist" status is he?
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Old 10.01.2015, 11:51
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

Jami: the most useful skill you can offer employers as a non-EU applicant is the ability to suppress your gag reflex.

HTH
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Old 10.01.2015, 13:26
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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2… A word of warning if you want to live in Europe… Europeans can't stand an American with attitude, that thinks they are superior because they are American… I promise you!
It's never been a problem for me.

Word of advice to fellow American's wanting to move to Europe:
Don't waste your time dealing with Europeans that don't believe that they are inferior to us. The rest of them are great and are very tolerant of us.

Island Monkey, what would have happened if this awesome American achievement had happened to you? Your "British sense of humor" wouldn't have saved you. A drunken-redneck, fishing-alone 9 miles off the coast, f*** you, I'm an American citizen attitude on the other hand is golden.
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Old 10.01.2015, 13:57
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

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He's not allowed to look for a job according to his "tourist" status is he?
Yes, he's allowed to look. He just can't start work until the permit has been approved and he has it in his hands.

Back to the hotel scenario with all the common languages, okay say for some strange reason the prospective employer hasn't had any responses but yours so far. He needs to weigh up the chances of getting approval for you because it's going to cost him time and money to prove it. He can't just say to the authorities he's the only one who's applied because he knows you're not the only one who could do the job and so do the Swiss authorities. They'll simply turn around and say to him try harder. So he's not going to put the application in because it's not worth the time and money to do so when he knows it'll be rejected. It doesn't matter that you're on the spot and the only applicant at the moment. There are Swiss/EU nationals out there who could do the job and it's up to him to find one.

I'll give you another example - intercompany transfer this time that someone recently reported here on the forum. American guy wants the job, his skills are a perfect fit yet the company refuses to apply for a permit because they say it costs too much - something in the region of CHF25,000 to go through the process. It probably wouldn't cost as much for the hotellier as it's not a transfer, but even so it's not cheap so employers here won't commit to applying unless they believe they have a really good chance of success. Your common languages hotellier knows he stands no chance so won't put in the application to start with.

If however the hotellier can make a case that he has many Mandarin and Russian speaking clients using his hotel, few staff who can speak these languages and none of the other applicants he has interviewed can speak them as well as you can he may take the chance and put an application in on your behalf and he may be granted permission to hire you. But there are no guarantees.
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Old 10.01.2015, 14:18
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

OP, here are a couple of concrete examples for you:

1: Large MNC seeking to fill a mid level IT position. None of the CH/EU applicants had the skills asked for, or were interested in the job after interviewing. Many months later, the company found an non-EU candidate matching the profile, applied for a permit.

Permit denied, the Migrationsamt told the company that their requirements were not reasonable for the position, that they should review the profile and search again in the CH/EU market.


2: Large MNC, seeking to fill a senior management position. Offer made to a non-EU with the track record they needed. Permit applied for and granted almost immediately.

---

Like everything in Switzerland - results may vary. The rules are indeed the rules - but sometimes they are strictly enforced, sometimes ignored. Sometimes without rhyme or reason. Sometimes other considerations take precedence. There are so many factors at play: current political climate, relationship the company has with the Powers That Be, whim of the bureaucrat, phase of the moon.

What you are up against right now is an adverse political climate. I'm sure you have been following the news since 9 Feb; Switzerland's politicians are under the gun to figure out how to comply with the MEI and still maintain the Bilaterals with the EU. Right now only real option available, and the only action taken, is to cut non-EU immigration, as EU immigration cannot be touched.

Some companies, even large MNCs who previously got carte blanche to do as they pleased, are now under pressure to hire CH/EU, even to the extent of example number one. Other companies seem to be able to do business as usual.

But do understand that your blue passport isn't doing you any favors at the present time, as other non-EU applicants are perceived as 'easier'. Focus on what you have to offer that others - EU and non-EU alike - don't have, focus on what will help justify the additional fol-de-rol your US citizenship creates.

---

In several of your posts you have focused on 'what if there is no one available at this time'... do be aware that (broad generalization) the Swiss hiring process does not move as fast as one might be used to in other countries. Notice periods often run three months for staff level employees, six months for management - so a position left open for six months plus is not uncommon. If a position were time critical, however, one would hope that the company can make a decent case... the question is, would the Migrationsamt agree. And that just might well be a roll of the dice.

Who knows - maybe you will be the lucky exception.

Again, all the best.
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Old 10.01.2015, 16:23
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Re: work permit in CH for American citizens

Quote:
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He's not allowed to look for a job according to his "tourist" status is he?
Yes, he can. It's not prohibited.


Quote:
View Post

Back to the hotel scenario with all the common languages, okay say for some strange reason the prospective employer hasn't had any responses but yours so far. He needs to weigh up the chances of getting approval for you because it's going to cost him time and money to prove it. He can't just say to the authorities he's the only one who's applied because he knows you're not the only one who could do the job and so do the Swiss authorities. They'll simply turn around and say to him try harder. So he's not going to put the application in because it's not worth the time and money to do so when he knows it'll be rejected. It doesn't matter that you're on the spot and the only applicant at the moment. There are Swiss/EU nationals out there who could do the job and it's up to him to find one.

I'll give you another example - intercompany transfer this time that someone recently reported here on the forum. American guy wants the job, his skills are a perfect fit yet the company refuses to apply for a permit because they say it costs too much - something in the region of CHF25,000 to go through the process. It probably wouldn't cost as much for the hotellier as it's not a transfer, but even so it's not cheap so employers here won't commit to applying unless they believe they have a really good chance of success. Your common languages hotellier knows he stands no chance so won't put in the application to start with.

If however the hotellier can make a case that he has many Mandarin and Russian speaking clients using his hotel, few staff who can speak these languages and none of the other applicants he has interviewed can speak them as well as you can he may take the chance and put an application in on your behalf and he may be granted permission to hire you. But there are no guarantees.
Ok. But his question is not really whether the hotel will bother to apply for a permit for him or not.

I think he is asking if a company needs to prove there is not one single person in all of Switzerland/EU who has the required skills. And the fact is they don't need to prove that. They just need to prove they made the best effort to find someone.

Let's take another example. Let's say the company is looking or someone who speaks 4 "common" languages, knows Java and juggles. AS the OP says in this first post, I'm sure there will always be at least ONE person in the Switzerland/EU who has these skills but for some reason or another that one person doesn't apply.

The company doesn't have to spend 4 years and place 1000s of ads in all of the EU to find this person. They just have to make a reasonable effort and if they can't find someone within a "reasonable" amount of time, then they can apply for a non-EU person if they found one.

Then your point and MC's comes in: Whether a company will go through the hassle of hiring that non-EU depends on how much they really need someone who speaks 4 "common" language, knows Java and can juggle. Probably what they will do is drop criteria that the person knows Java.


And what is a "reasonable" effort and what is a "reasonable" amount of time is all debatable and ultimately a judgement call by the authorities.
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