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  #21  
Old 14.04.2015, 01:46
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There is no automatic right to be able to work with a non-EU L dependent's permit. If she wants to work any potential employer will have to go through the same non-EU hiring process as they did to hire you, i.e. prove that they can't find a Swiss/EU national or someone else already living here who has a valid permit who could do the job. The details are outlined here:

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...zulassung.html

Drewboog this applies to your wife too if you both hold L permits.

It's quite clear in the Foreign Nationals Act that any L permit dependent getting a job here is subject to authorisation by the Swiss authorities. Simply finding an employer who wants to hire you isn't enough.

The HR department a my job promised me when I came to Switzerland a few months ago that my wife would be allowed to work here. They said she would have the same work permit I have and allowed to work wherever would hire her.

I asked the resident permit office in Zurich and then immigration office and they both said she is allowed to work here. I came here with as a professional. She has an identical work permit card as me. I have an L permit for now, which everyone starts with. Next year I'll get a B permit and my wife will get the same. Her permit is attached to mine.

That link doesn't say anything about spouse permits or or working right when you're married here.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 14.04.2015 at 14:55. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #22  
Old 14.04.2015, 09:05
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

I'm sorry drewboog, but your HR department is wrong. As the holder of a dependent's L permit your wife needs authorization from the Swiss authorities for any job offer she receives.

"Members of the family of a license holder of short stay (art. 26 OASA) do not have a right to gainful employment. The gainful activity is subject to authorization. On admission, a request of the employer respecting the pay and conditions of employment customary in the locality and in the branch must have been made. In addition, members of the family of a holder of an authorization for short stay (art. 26 OASA) must have professional qualifications (personal qualifications, Art. 23 AuG).
I. DOMAINE DES ÉTRANGERS 10.25.2013 Version
(As of 13/02/2015)
Federal Department of Justice and Police FDJP
State Secretariat for Migration SEM

The possibility of gainful employment for family members is related, according to art. OASA 26 and 27, the duration of the authorization of the person granted family reunification. If the residence permit of the spouse is not renewed, the members of his family can not claim a right to pursue their gainful employment (art. 6, para. 2, OASA)."

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam...ngen-aug-f.pdf
Section 4.4.1 (pages 94/95 of the Foreign Nationals Act)

That's not to say she can't work, it just means any employer will have to go through the non-EU hiring process and get approval from the Swiss authorities as outlined in my other link.

When she gets a B permit along with you, then there will be no restriction on any employer wanting to hire her. There is the same non-EU hiring provision for B permit dependents in the Foreign Nationals Act, but at present the Swiss legislature have decided not to implement it.

"By constrast, members of the family of a holder of a residence permit does not have a right to gainful employment. However, given the general objectives of the Foreign Nationals Act (better integration of the foreign population), the legislature decided not to submit gainful employment authorization."
(page 94)

However, there is no guarantee you/she will get a B permit next year I'm afraid if that's what you've been told. Most non-EU nationals stay on the L permit for at least 2 years, sometimes even longer. You might be lucky and get one after a year, but I wouldn't count on it.
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  #23  
Old 14.04.2015, 11:56
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

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I'm sorry drewboog, but your HR department is wrong. As the holder of a dependent's L permit your wife needs authorization from the Swiss authorities for any job offer she receives.

"Members of the family of a license holder of short stay (art. 26 OASA) do not have a right to gainful employment. The gainful activity is subject to authorization. On admission, a request of the employer respecting the pay and conditions of employment customary in the locality and in the branch must have been made. In addition, members of the family of a holder of an authorization for short stay (art. 26 OASA) must have professional qualifications (personal qualifications, Art. 23 AuG).
I. DOMAINE DES ÉTRANGERS 10.25.2013 Version
(As of 13/02/2015)
Federal Department of Justice and Police FDJP
State Secretariat for Migration SEM

The possibility of gainful employment for family members is related, according to art. OASA 26 and 27, the duration of the authorization of the person granted family reunification. If the residence permit of the spouse is not renewed, the members of his family can not claim a right to pursue their gainful employment (art. 6, para. 2, OASA)."

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam...ngen-aug-f.pdf
Section 4.4.1 (pages 94/95 of the Foreign Nationals Act)

That's not to say she can't work, it just means any employer will have to go through the non-EU hiring process and get approval from the Swiss authorities as outlined in my other link.

When she gets a B permit along with you, then there will be no restriction on any employer wanting to hire her. There is the same non-EU hiring provision for B permit dependents in the Foreign Nationals Act, but at present the Swiss legislature have decided not to implement it.

"By constrast, members of the family of a holder of a residence permit does not have a right to gainful employment. However, given the general objectives of the Foreign Nationals Act (better integration of the foreign population), the legislature decided not to submit gainful employment authorization."
(page 94)

However, there is no guarantee you/she will get a B permit next year I'm afraid if that's what you've been told. Most non-EU nationals stay on the L permit for at least 2 years, sometimes even longer. You might be lucky and get one after a year, but I wouldn't count on it.

Thanks for posting this. I did some research to make sure my wife does has the work permit. I see now that there are many cases where spouses have L-dependent permits and are not allowed employment. My company must have sponsored both my wife and I when we moved here. My wife's L permit card has "Erwerbstätigkeit Gemäss AuG/FZA" written on it, which is 'With gainful employment in accordance with the AuG'. The AuG is "Aufenthalt mit Erwerbstätigkeit aus Drittstaaten", Residence with Gainful Employment from 3rd Countries document. On a different document her work permit status says "Analog Ehemann". We also asked at the immigration office to make sure she was allowed to work when we were doing our paperwork.

I have an open-ended work contract here. I have a 12 month L permit, which everyone starts out on coming from a 3rd country. My company didn't say I would get a B permit next year, they will just renew whichever one that I need to stay. For me there is no difference between the L and B work permits because I work on a specific technology and there is only company in Switzerland in that field. The L permit ties me to my current employer, so I wouldn't be allowed to go to a different company in Switzerland.
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  #24  
Old 14.04.2015, 13:11
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

Sorry, but I don't think your interpretation isn't quite right. Google translate gives Erwerbstätigkeit Gemäss AuG/FZA" as "According to the Aliens Employment / FZA", i.e. according to the Foreign Nationals Act. The other two phrases simply mean that she's here because you're employed here and that her permit is tied to yours as per the Act I believe, but I don't read German.

It would be extremely unusual for a company to sponsor your wife for employment if they are not actually offering her a position with them. In fact I don't think such an application would be approved as it means they are also offering her a position with the firm and as such it would be a permit independent of yours and subject to the quota limit and non-EU hiring rules.

She has the right to live here with you and IF an employer is prepared to go through the non-EU hiring process to obtain approval she can also work.
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  #25  
Old 14.04.2015, 15:09
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

I believe drewboog and medea are both right, but you're talking past each other.

When a permit says "mit Erwerbstätigkeit" it means the person is allowed to work, provided certain conditions are met. In drewboog's case, his wife's permit has the additional "Gemäss AuG/FZA" meaning she's subject to the rules for 3rd country nationals.

For now, an employer will need to prove they can't find a Swiss, EU or other national already here on a valid permit to do the job. In larger, multinational companies this is a pretty common practice. In smaller companies it might be a bit more challenging. However it seems if a company is motivated enough, they will make it happen.

When your cantonal authorities tell you your wife is allowed to work, they're right. She just has to find an employer willing to jump through the hoops.

Contrast this with me - I'm married to a Swiss. Although I'm a 3rd country national (USA) I do not have any additional wording or conditions on my permit. It simply says "mit Erwerbstätigkeit" - therefore any employer can hire me without having to do any paperwork except sign a contract with me.

When a permit says "ohne Erwerbstätigkeit" it means the person is not allowed to work under any circumstances.
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Old 14.04.2015, 15:59
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

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Sorry, but I don't think your interpretation isn't quite right. Google translate gives Erwerbstätigkeit ...
There is a Swiss RAV office very close to my work. I just went and stopped by with a copy of my wife's L work permit. I asked them if she is allowed to work in Switzerland with this permit. They were very nice and said "I don't see why not, yes she can work in Switzerland. She has everything here." I spoke with them some more and they said she should stop by the RAV office herself to register and they could help her find a konditor job.


I see there are two types of work permit status:

Familiennachtzug Mit Erwerbstätigkeit Analog Ehemann
Family reunification with employment analogous to husband

Familiennachtzug Ohne Erwerbstätigkeit
Family reunification without employment


If a dependent-L permit holder is not allowed to work their permit will say "Familiennachtzug Ohne Erwerbstätigkeit" and they would require a company to sponsor the permit for them to work (and prove there is no one else in Switzerland, and then the EU that can fill this position.) This seems like the norm.

My wife got the first status "Familiennachtzug Mit Erwerbstätigkeit Analog Ehemann" and is allowed to work. I guess I unknowingly negotiated for this when I joined my company, because I told them I needed a work permit for her as well in order for me to relocate here. I didn't understand this isn't common until.

Another forum member also said they were allowed to get work permission for a dependent spouse with a L permit..
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Old 14.04.2015, 16:01
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

Yes, that's the difference 3Wishes. I think drewboog (and do correct me if I'm wrong) is under the impression that his wife would just need to sign an employment contract and then, like you, she could work without needing approval from the Swiss authorities. That's clearly not the case, but she also isn't forbidden from working at all; she just needs to find an employer who's willing to go through the process to get approval.

When they get their B permits (all being well) then like you she'll be able to find work without the approval proviso attached to it.

Edit:
No one said it was impossible, but she will need approval from the Swiss authorities. It even says so in the thread link you provided.

"Getting a work permission for a dependent spouse on an 'L' permit is a hurdle, but I managed to do it with an employer in Zurich, so it's not impossible. Your employer will have to show that they can't source anyone in Switzerland or the EU to do the job - but in my case my employer had had the position advertised for over 12 months, so it wasn't a problem."

And it wasn't done prior to arrival, but after Swisspea was already here. Her employer was willing to go through the process to prove that they couldn't find anyone else who could do the job so Swisspea was able to be hired.

What you negotiated was that she could be employed, but only if the 3rd country hiring rules are met.

And don't always believe what RAV or the cantonal offices might tell you. We've had plenty of examples where they don't know what the Swiss law is.

Last edited by Medea Fleecestealer; 14.04.2015 at 16:31.
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  #28  
Old 15.04.2015, 00:36
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

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When a permit says "ohne Erwerbstätigkeit" it means the person is not allowed to work under any circumstances.
This is not strictly the case. My first permit said "sans activite lucrative" (without gainful activity, which I think is the equivalent in French to your German) even though I had the right to work. I just wasn't working. Once I got a job they changed the permit.

As for dependent L permit holders:
I have always been under the impressing that dependent L permit holders could work as long as the employer asked for authorization and the conditions written in the law were met and NOT that they had to "go through the hoops". After reading the link and specifically point 4.4.1 that MF linked too, I am now convinced that this is in fact the case.

Point 4.4.1 says
The employer must ask for authorization.
The salary and work conditions should be "correct"
Also, the members of the family must have professional qualifications (I guess that means they can't go to work at the Coop).

It does NOT say the employer must prove there is no Swiss/EU/etc available for the job.
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  #29  
Old 15.04.2015, 00:45
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

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This is not strictly the case. My first permit said "sans activite lucrative" (without gainful activity, which I think is the equivalent in French to your German) even though I had the right to work. I just wasn't working. Once I got a job they changed the permit.
Ah, thanks for that. Yes I think they are supposed to mean the same thing. I was under the impression it meant with working privileges or no working privileges, not that you just weren't working at the time. Mostly because mine says mit instead of ohne...but I'm not working.
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  #30  
Old 17.04.2015, 11:16
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

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This is not strictly the case. My first permit said "sans activite lucrative" (without gainful activity, which I think is the equivalent in French to your German) even though I had the right to work. I just wasn't working. Once I got a job they changed the permit.

As for dependent L permit holders:
I have always been under the impressing that dependent L permit holders could work as long as the employer asked for authorization and the conditions written in the law were met and NOT that they had to "go through the hoops". After reading the link and specifically point 4.4.1 that MF linked too, I am now convinced that this is in fact the case.

Point 4.4.1 says
The employer must ask for authorization.
The salary and work conditions should be "correct"
Also, the members of the family must have professional qualifications (I guess that means they can't go to work at the Coop).

It does NOT say the employer must prove there is no Swiss/EU/etc available for the job.
If this will help in anyway, I am also on dependent L just like drewdog's wife. I just got back from my local immigration office in schaffhausen to find out if I am allowed to work and they confirmed the above post. I am able to work as long as the salary and work are correct.
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  #31  
Old 20.04.2015, 16:17
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

We faced similar situation few years ago. HR job market for english speaker is negligible. So better option would be to go for Master in of the bi-lingual universities. This will help to build German proficiency as well.

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I don't want to disappoint you but the reality is that bachelor of 3 years in India is not equivalent to the bachelors here. It is considered with lesser credits. If your wife applies for PHD she will be most likely asked to apply for masters again. I know someone with same qualification who faced this issue. HR job market for English speaker non EU is almost non existent.

Doing masters again is not a bad idea at all. Time flies and she will be able to make lot of friends. She will also have access to university resources like language classes, library, gym etc and it would also be much easier to proceed for PHD.
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  #32  
Old 21.04.2015, 13:30
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

Here is the information in the Swiss Federal Act of Foreign Nationals (from January 3rd, 2015).

Art. 46 Employment of spouses and children

The spouse and children of a Swiss national or of a person with a permanent residence permit or a residence permit (Art. 42-44) may work on a salaried or self-employed basis anywhere in Switzerland.


Article 44 is the relevant one for people with residence permits.

Art. 44 Spouses and children of persons with a residence permit

The foreign spouse and unmarried children under 18 of a person with a residence permit may be granted a residence permit if:
a.
they live with the permit holder;
b.
suitable housing is available; and
c.
they do not depend on social assistance.


And if you have a residence permit authorizing you to work then you would be a "domestic employee" and would not have to meet the precedence guideline in Article 21.

Art. 21 Precedence

1 Foreign nationals may be permitted to work only if it is proven that no suitable domestic employees or citizens of states with which an agreement on the free movement of workers has been concluded can be found for the job.
2 Domestic employees include:
a.
Swiss nationals;
b.
persons with a permanent residence permit;
c.
persons with a residence permit authorizing them to work.


Lastly, you have to get paid a salary that is customary for the location and position. There is a government website that lists the salary range for each profession based on location and age.

Art. 22 Salary and employment conditions

Foreign nationals may only be admitted in order to work if the salary and employment conditions customary for the location, profession and sector are satisfied.
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Old 21.04.2015, 14:06
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

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Here is the information in the Swiss Federal Act of Foreign Nationals (from January 3rd, 2015).

Art. 46 Employment of spouses and children

The spouse and children of a Swiss national or of a person with a permanent residence permit or a residence permit (Art. 42-44) may work on a salaried or self-employed basis anywhere in Switzerland.

Article 44 is the relevant one for people with residence permits.

Art. 44 Spouses and children of persons with a residence permit

The foreign spouse and unmarried children under 18 of a person with a residence permit may be granted a residence permit if:
a.
they live with the permit holder;
b.
suitable housing is available; and
c.
they do not depend on social assistance.

And if you have a residence permit authorizing you to work then you would be a "domestic employee" and would not have to meet the precedence guideline in Article 21.

Art. 21 Precedence

1 Foreign nationals may be permitted to work only if it is proven that no suitable domestic employees or citizens of states with which an agreement on the free movement of workers has been concluded can be found for the job.
2 Domestic employees include:
a.
Swiss nationals;
b.
persons with a permanent residence permit;
c.
persons with a residence permit authorizing them to work.

Lastly, you have to get paid a salary that is customary for the location and position. There is a government website that lists the salary range for each profession based on location and age.

Art. 22 Salary and employment conditions

Foreign nationals may only be admitted in order to work if the salary and employment conditions customary for the location, profession and sector are satisfied.
Unfortunately, this doesn't apply to either AmanGoel's wife or yours drewboog. They have neither a permanent residence permit (C) nor a residence permit (B). What they have are short stay permits (L).
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  #34  
Old 21.04.2015, 14:51
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

@Madea - You're right. I see that Short Stay Permits (L) are in Article 45 and Article 46 only applies to Article 42-44.

My wife had her job interview and it went well. I think she will get offered this job. I will follow up on the forum when she begins work about any process she has to go through.
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Old 21.04.2015, 15:12
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

Yes she can work and study there is no restriction as far as I know because she is from the 3rd country.

The difficult part will be finding a job. I am also from a third country with a dependent Visa. I have been working for 3 years now, so it is possible to work without changing the type of visa she will have.

I also have a friend who enrolled to ETH for a masters program with a dependent Visa.

I hope it helps
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Old 26.04.2015, 18:09
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

Thank you all for the replies!
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Old 13.05.2015, 13:34
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

To follow up about my wife's experience on the dependent L permit..

She applied and had an interview at an American style bakery for the pastry chef position. They said they wanted to hire her, but first had to look into the paperwork required. They didn't get back to her for two weeks. Then they told her were going to hire someone else because they weren't in a position to do the paperwork and they wanted someone to start immediately. It costs 400 CHF to submit the paperwork with no guarantee of successful outcome or defined date for review. This is a small business that has only two employees.

After this she went to the immigration office to ask questions and be informed on the process. They again said, yes you're allowed to work but they have to get this approval. They said to get approved the employer does have to justify that they couldn't find anyone that was qualified for the position. They prove this by showing they advertised the position online or at the RAV for some time and didn't find a qualified person. They said all Swiss employers will know the process. They said typically for office jobs the employer doesn't mind going through the process of applying, but for something like housecleaning (unskilled work) no employer would want to bother going through the process.
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Old 13.05.2015, 13:38
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

Thanks for the update drewboog. Yes, that sounds right. For jobs like cleaners, etc, there are going to be plenty of EU nationals who can do those jobs so an employer simply won't bother to do the paperwork because they know the application wouldn't be approved. Why spend CHF400 when you don't need to?
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Old 13.05.2015, 23:51
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

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To follow up about my wife's experience on the dependent L permit..

She applied and had an interview at an American style bakery for the pastry chef position. They said they wanted to hire her, but first had to look into the paperwork required. They didn't get back to her for two weeks. Then they told her were going to hire someone else because they weren't in a position to do the paperwork and they wanted someone to start immediately. It costs 400 CHF to submit the paperwork with no guarantee of successful outcome or defined date for review. This is a small business that has only two employees.

After this she went to the immigration office to ask questions and be informed on the process. They again said, yes you're allowed to work but they have to get this approval. They said to get approved the employer does have to justify that they couldn't find anyone that was qualified for the position. They prove this by showing they advertised the position online or at the RAV for some time and didn't find a qualified person. They said all Swiss employers will know the process. They said typically for office jobs the employer doesn't mind going through the process of applying, but for something like housecleaning (unskilled work) no employer would want to bother going through the process.
The regs above say that they have to have professional qualifications. Working in a bakery is not likely to fit.
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Old 14.05.2015, 17:08
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Re: Dependent Work Permit - Non EU

And after looking at the response from Drewboog, it is absolutely clear that a NON EU dependent L permit holder cannot work until a work permit is secured by an employer. the work permit can be secured (or permission can be granted) when the employer can prove that

a) the employer cannot find anybody in Switzerland and EU who can do the job
b) the dependent has professional qualifications and salary and work conditions must be satisfied.

so the salary and work conditions part is only part of the approval process, the real problem lies in point a above and no employer will bother to do this as it costs money with no guarantee for success.

cheers
happycreature
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