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Old 04.05.2015, 14:16
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Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

Hi everyone,

I am an American who has recently finished a master's degree at a small Swiss university. My current B permit will expire at the end of august.

Right now I am working independently on a grant/fellowship on a unique project within my field. Technically I am unemployed as the money for the project comes as an award from a Luxembourg non-profit with equipment being sponsored by a Swiss company. The project has me working in the field mostly outside of Switzerland- France, Germany, and Italy and then from home in Lausanne on a computer.

The working period of the project will last until September/October and I have an obligation to present the results of this project at an event in Italy in November.

My problem is of course how to remain in Switzerland (or anywhere in Europe) past August in order to complete my obligations for this project and organization. I do have enough money to live on for the next year.

As the project could prove to be commercially viable in the future, and I many prospective clients that I am working with at the moment, I have thought to start a SARL (GmBH) here in Switzerland and sponsor myself for a B permit. On paper this should work as I have a Swiss master's degree and am a "specialist" in a very niche field. I do have the collateral needed to start such a company(20k)- but it would be difficult to fulfill any "minimum supporting wage" criteria. I currently live on ~1500-1800/ month and I am sure this is below what is needed to receive a B permit; I could pay myself more and then dump the extra money back into the company, but of course would be double taxed on this.

Does this seem like a plausible way to renew a permit to allow me to finish my current works? Are there any gaping holes in my plan? What would be the time frame to accomplish all this? Any other ideas on how to stay in Switzerland, or Europe, for a few additional months without returning to the US?
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Old 04.05.2015, 15:01
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

a) B permit holders who are non-EU don't have a right to set up a business here, it's down to the cantonal authorities to say yea or nay.

'All other persons have no legal right to set up their own business. They must submit an application to the respective cantonal authorities. Apart from the necessary personal requirements, it is decisive in the evaluation that the company will have a "lasting positive effect or influence on the Swiss labour market".'

http://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu-gruenden...x.html?lang=en

Whether you can prove a lasting positive effect or influence on the Swiss labour market remains to be seen. You'd certainly have to convince the authorities of that.

b) your company may have to prove they can't find a Swiss/EU national who could do the job as outlined under the non-EU hiring processs. This could cost you both time and money. Might qualify under one of the exemptions given at the bottom of the page though.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...zulassung.html

Best thing to do is talk to your cantonal migration office and see what they say about your plan as they'll be the ones giving you approval or not.
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Old 04.05.2015, 15:13
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

Here are several possibilities allowing an American to reside in Europe:

1) Netherlands: Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (DAFT) allows American entrepreneurs to settle in the Netherlands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT_%28treaty%29

2) Germany: Americans and citizens of several other countries can move to Germany without a job and register after arriving.

http://www.german-way.com/for-expats...t-for-germany/

3) Austria: Highly skilled non-EU citizens can apply for a Red-White-Red work permit:

http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-...-red-card.html

If you haven't done so already, you might wish to check whether you are eligible for citizenship in an EU country by heritage/ descent.
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Old 04.05.2015, 15:45
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

Would he be able to do any of those though MennoFloyd as they're all in the Schengen Area same as Switzerland? Once he deregisters I'm not sure he have tourist status again without leaving Schengen for 3 months. I suppose if he could arrange to deregister in Switzerland one day and register in one of the other countries as a resident the next he'd be okay.

Reading the links the Netherlands looks best though not sure he could meet the balance sheet requirement. Germany requires an employment contract and Austria has similar requirements to Switzerland's for self-employment.
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Old 04.05.2015, 15:49
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

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...I'm not sure he have tourist status again without leaving Schengen for 3 months...
I don't think one needs to leave Schengen to start tourist time, but tourists are not allowed to work. OP plans to keep working/earning money, thus the tricky permit issue. Why not just ask the cantonal authorities for an extension of the permit for 4-6 weeks? Show them your contract, etc. and see what they say.
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Old 04.05.2015, 15:58
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

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Reading the links the Netherlands looks best though not sure he could meet the balance sheet requirement. Germany requires an employment contract and Austria has similar requirements to Switzerland's for self-employment.
1) Netherlands: this looks like a definite possibility as it is specifically designed for self-employed Americans.
2) Germany: this could also be a possibility as a self-employed person under a freelance visa (also called "artist" visa):
http://travelsofadam.com/2012/05/how...many-american/
3) Austria: this appears to be designed for highly-skilled employees rather than for the self-employed.

Also, aside from EU citizenship based on descent, another possibility is if the OP is eligible for citizenship in a (ex) British Commonwealth country. Some of these countries have agreements with the UK to allow their citizens, especially young people, to work in the UK.

Added:
DAFT "Balance Sheet Requirement": I don't see an issue with meeting this requirement:

Assets:
Cash
Computer
Chair + Desk

Liabilities + Equity:
Liabilities
Equity

Last edited by MennoFloyd; 04.05.2015 at 16:11.
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Old 04.05.2015, 16:15
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

Dont you get a 6 month L permit after graduation if you have a swiss university degree?
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Old 04.05.2015, 16:26
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

That blog link looks fairly old MennoFloyd. I tried the Berlin Aüslander link and it couldn't be found and the most recent comment is from back in 2013 so I don't know how useful it is now.

Also not sure if he'd be able to get a permit quickly enough. According to this:

http://www.redtapetranslation.com/no...-artists-visa/

artists, musicians, actors, graphic designers, film-makers, and language teachers (particularly English teachers) do get processed very quickly, but not so for others.

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Dont you get a 6 month L permit after graduation if you have a swiss university degree?
They have up to 6 months to find a job.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...abgaenger.html

OP already has a job/project, just doesn't meet the requirements to continue to have a permit by the looks of it which is why he's looking for alternatives.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 04.05.2015 at 17:39. Reason: merging successive posts (sort of)
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Old 04.05.2015, 16:35
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

Thanks for the responses thus far- some good points have been made. I'll try and clear up some of the deetails
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a) B permit holders who are non-EU don't have a right to set up a business here, it's down to the cantonal authorities to say yea or nay.
http://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu-gruenden...x.html?lang=en

b) your company may have to prove they can't find a Swiss/EU national who could do the job as outlined under the non-EU hiring processs.
A little while back I read a lot on starting GmBH- my thought was that anyone could start a company here but you must then meet the requirements for B permit- which fortunately I do with a swiss degree. Seems it could be more difficult than expected, but still possible, yes I should have a chat with the appropriate offices.

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Here are several possibilities allowing an American to reside in Europe:

1) Netherlands: Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (DAFT) allows American entrepreneurs to settle in the Netherlands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT_%28treaty%29

2) Germany: Americans and citizens of several other countries can move to Germany without a job and register after arriving.

http://www.german-way.com/for-expats...t-for-germany/

3) Austria: Highly skilled non-EU citizens can apply for a Red-White-Red work permit:

http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-...-red-card.html

If you haven't done so already, you might wish to check whether you are eligible for citizenship in an EU country by heritage/ descent.
Thanks for the links- the German and Netherlands options, while not ideal, seem like they could be possible solutions for my need to stay until my conference in November. I also believe the city of Berlin has its' own program with less restrictions. All of these options would be very geographically inconvenient for my field work, although technically I just need an address.

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Would he be able to do any of those though MennoFloyd as they're all in the Schengen Area same as Switzerland? Once he deregisters I'm not sure he have tourist status again without leaving Schengen for 3 months. I suppose if he could arrange to deregister in Switzerland one day and register in one of the other countries as a resident the next he'd be okay.
These are my thoughts too- there are plenty of options if I return to the united states and apply for the appropriate paperwork there- problem is I am here and need to stay here for the time being. I can leave in October, but it is imperative that I return to Italy for one week in November.

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I don't think one needs to leave Schengen to start tourist time, but tourists are not allowed to work. OP plans to keep working/earning money, thus the tricky permit issue. Why not just ask the cantonal authorities for an extension of the permit for 4-6 weeks? Show them your contract, etc. and see what they say.
Actually, I am not technically "working". I have no employer and do not receive a paycheck. I received a one-time payment to independently conduct a project. Maybe it can be thought of as commissioned work or a non-academic research grant. This project has its own set of modest goals, but my ambition is to test the waters for commercial viability of this specific type of work.

My idea of starting a company is to prolong the amount of time I can stay here- right now I need to find a way to stay in Europe until November at which point I can return to the US either briefly or permanently- that decision is yet to be made. If my project goes well, and I wish to remain in Europe, then I should have a good opportunity to continue the work I am currently doing commercially; if it tanks or I feel there is more opportunity in the US I will simply dissolve the company and pack my bags.

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Also, aside from EU citizenship based on descent, another possibility is if the OP is eligible for citizenship in a (ex) British Commonwealth country. Some of these countries have agreements with the UK to allow their citizens, especially young people, to work in the UK.
I don't think there are any citizenship options available for me (is there a route for Germany?)- I would have jumped on any of those options along time ago.

reading up in this very confusing thread- maybe I can just enroll in a language course and get another student permit, that would certainly solve my immediate problems.
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Old 04.05.2015, 16:57
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

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I don't think there are any citizenship options available for me (is there a route for Germany?)- I would have jumped on any of those options along time ago.
A list of EU citizenship available by descent:

http://www.whitenewsnow.com/lounge-w...ent-print.html

Many Americans have obtained German citizenship under the legal article mentioned as descendents of Germans who involuntarily lost their German citizenship during the Nazi period.

Malta should also be on this EU citizenship by descent list. Brittany Spears might even qualify from what I can determine.

If you had access to Canadian citizenship, you might be able to obtain a "working holiday" visa to Switzerland and other countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_holiday_visa
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Old 04.05.2015, 17:03
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

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A list of EU citizenship available by descent:

http://www.whitenewsnow.com/lounge-w...ent-print.html

Many Americans have obtained German citizenship under the legal article mentioned as descendents of Germans who involuntarily lost their German citizenship during the Nazi period.

Malta should also be on this EU citizenship by descent list. Brittany Spears might even qualify from what I can determine.

If you had access to Canadian citizenship, you might be able to obtain a "working holiday" visa to Switzerland and other countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_holiday_visa
None of these will work for me- time to start wife shopping I suppose
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Old 04.05.2015, 17:11
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

Having a Swiss degree doesn't meet any requirements for setting up a business or getting a permit as far as I know. All it grants you is the extra 6 months after you graduate to search for employment here if that's what you want to do. If you have a source that says otherwise please post a link for it.
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Old 04.05.2015, 17:21
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Dont you get a 6 month L permit after graduation if you have a swiss university degree?
Yes, but this L permit and 6 months begin from when you graduate- which would be roughly the same time as my current B permit is good for. Plus I would need to change plates and insurance for the car if changing to a L permit- not things I want to do if they can be avoided.

If I could get the L from the end of august that would be very nice solution for me- don't think it is possible without being dishonest to the offices.

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They have up to 6 months to find a job.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...abgaenger.html

OP already has a job/project, just doesn't meet the requirements to continue to have a permit by the looks of it which is why he's looking for alternatives.
yes, exactly- if push comes to shove I'm sure I can find a job (at least a short term contract position) to begin in September and allow me to present my work in November.

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Having a Swiss degree doesn't meet any requirements for setting up a business or getting a permit as far as I know. All it grants you is the extra 6 months after you graduate to search for employment here if that's what you want to do. If you have a source that says otherwise please post a link for it.
It seems open to plenty of interpretation, but that is how I read it at least.
Quote:
Candidates who receive a degree from a university in Switzerland will be granted facilitated admission to the Swiss labor market. Employers will still have to show proof that the candidate is of economic and scientific interest to the Swiss labor market.
http://www.studyinginswitzerland.ch/...n-and-visa.htm

Quote:
Their future employer may now ignore the priority principle for Swiss citizens, Swiss residents, EU-
17 and EFTA nationals. It will be sufficient to show that the job to be filled has a significant
scientific or economic interest. This rather vaguely-termed formulation in the law has been
clarified by an Ordinance on its application, but nevertheless remains subject to the interpretation of
the authorities who deliver the permit.
http://carriere.epfl.ch/files/conten...ates%20_EN.pdf

Last edited by 3Wishes; 04.05.2015 at 17:41. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 04.05.2015, 18:22
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

All that means is Swiss graduates who are non-EU nationals bypass the usual non-EU hiring rules when it comes to being hired by an employer. As you're talking of setting up your own business I don't believe it makes any difference whether you have a Swiss degree or not, you'd still have to convince the authorities that the idea's viable financially and could create more jobs in Switzerland later on.

Same with the permit. Yes, having the degree may make it easier, but you still need to prove the economic/scientific side to get one. And many employers are either totally unware of that law or still are wary of hiring non-EU graduates.
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Old 04.05.2015, 18:36
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

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All that means is Swiss graduates who are non-EU nationals bypass the usual non-EU hiring rules when it comes to being hired by an employer. As you're talking of setting up your own business I don't believe it makes any difference whether you have a Swiss degree or not, you'd still have to convince the authorities that the idea's viable financially and could create more jobs in Switzerland later on.

Same with the permit. Yes, having the degree may make it easier, but you still need to prove the economic/scientific side to get one. And many employers are either totally unware of that law or still are wary of hiring non-EU graduates.
Yes the employer would be the company I start- I would hire my self as the sole employee. The company would be a GmBH not a sole-proprietorship.

The only terms for forming a SARL/GmBH are swiss residency- which I do currently have. Then I need to prove the economic/scientific part of employing myself... and who knows what that really means.

From the many threads I have read here on this topic, as well as outside advise, I am fairly sure this will work... on paper at least.
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Old 05.05.2015, 23:03
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

If you already have been paid and just want to stay here till October/November, then you can simply stay as a tourist for the 3 additional months since your 90 days will start after your permit expires. However, you must leave Schengen the day before the permit expires and come back the day after. Trip to UK would do it. However, you might have to close down your Swiss bank account plus not really sure what happens with health insurance.
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Old 05.05.2015, 23:31
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

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Yes the employer would be the company I start- I would hire my self as the sole employee. The company would be a GmBH not a sole-proprietorship.

The only terms for forming a SARL/GmBH are swiss residency- which I do currently have. Then I need to prove the economic/scientific part of employing myself... and who knows what that really means.

From the many threads I have read here on this topic, as well as outside advise, I am fairly sure this will work... on paper at least.

If it were really that easy to get Swiss residency you don't think everybody else would be busy setting up companies.....
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Old 10.05.2015, 02:59
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

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Yes the employer would be the company I start- I would hire my self as the sole employee. The company would be a GmBH not a sole-proprietorship.

The only terms for forming a SARL/GmBH are swiss residency- which I do currently have. Then I need to prove the economic/scientific part of employing myself... and who knows what that really means.

From the many threads I have read here on this topic, as well as outside advise, I am fairly sure this will work... on paper at least.
hi, why don't you just go to language courses and calmly get your permit on this basis with no stress? Which canton are you in?
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Old 10.05.2015, 09:20
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Re: Not sure what to do- unique situation; need new permit

Sign out when your permit expires and stay as a tourist. If you will need to be in the schengen zone more than 3 months, then spend some of the time in the UK.
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