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Old 01.08.2015, 13:31
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Foreign single mum needs a permit.

I am a non Eu single mother having a swiss daughter.
We are not married and her father sends money for her monthly. He is reluctant to pay the expensive international school fee for her in the future.
I hope my daughter to go in schools in Switzerland.
Therefore I am looking into a permit for myself at least until she goes to university there.
I am afraid my case is really rare.
Is there possibility for me to get residence permit?
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  #2  
Old 01.08.2015, 13:49
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

You MIGHT be accepted, if you can prove you have a continuous income for yourself of at least Fr 3'000 per month plus money for your daughter, so maybe altogether SFr 4'500 per month. The amount will vary with the canton you apply to live in.

Singapore schools are well regarded, why not apply there?
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Old 01.08.2015, 20:21
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Thank you for the reply.

Eventhough my income is not from any company it is much over the amount you estimated. I will need to figure out how to prove my income to the immigration then.

I would love to send my daughter to swiss public school thru university. She needs to learn german.
I am from korea, living in Malaysia and was planning to move to Uk.
To be honest I can not afford the uk university nor korea ing expensive tuition fee to go to university. Moreover my daughter looks very western. I dont want her to be a monkey in public school in such single raced society in Korea.

Do you introduce me an leagal expert or company dealing with this matter?

Warm regards🌹
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Old 01.08.2015, 22:59
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

If I understand you correctly, the father of your daughter is Swiss. If he lives here, and is financially supporting your (and his) daughter (and you?) then I imagine that your application could be more successful with his cooperation.
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Old 02.08.2015, 07:08
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Her father is Swiss and he is surpporting financially. But he lives in Singapore for work.
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Old 02.08.2015, 11:29
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

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I hope my daughter to go in schools in Switzerland.
Therefore I am looking into a permit for myself at least until she goes to university there.
Is there possibility for me to get residence permit?
I am from korea, living in Malaysia and was planning to move to Uk.

If you don't plan to live in Switzerland, why do you need a Swiss residence permit?

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Her father is Swiss and he is surpporting financially. But he lives in Singapore for work.

Let me see if I understand this correctly: you want to park your daughter in Switzerland while you go to the UK and her father is on the other side of the world in Singapore. Is the welfare of your daughter of no importance to you? This sounds like what you want is top priority.
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Old 02.08.2015, 11:37
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

As I understand it, she was planning to move to the UK with her daughter.
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Old 02.08.2015, 11:39
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

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As I understand it, she was planning to move to the UK with her daughter.
And now she changed her plans and would like to move to Switzerland, with her daughter. Who is a minor and will not be attending a boarding school, and should therefore live with her family (mother).
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Old 02.08.2015, 12:00
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Now alles klar...
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Old 02.08.2015, 12:41
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Always I would love to move to UK. Actually i was about to go to Uk first tiime I met him....anyway I came here to malaysia.
Her father said he would never pay for prep schools in uk , even in Malaysia international school.
So I think I need to move to Switzerland before my daughter turns into schoolage.
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Old 02.08.2015, 18:42
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Why? It'll make no difference where you live if he won't pay the school fees.

As far as the UK and rest of Europe are concerned you can't just turn up and start living there. You need a visa/permit to do so and that usually means having a pre-approved job. Same for Switzerland too, but whether there's any other way you could get in as your daughter's a Swiss national I don't know. I'm not convinced that "making clothes" will be enough to guarantee you anything, anywhere. I realise you're from North Korea and may not yet know all the ins and outs of moving to other countries, but it's easy enough to research all this info online. You need to understand what you can and cannot do regarding immigration to another country. You certainly can't turn up at the border and expect to be let in.

Has your daughter's birth been registered with the Swiss embassy? If not, then she'll have no claim to Swiss citizenship at the present time and would not be able to apply for it until she's older.

"8. Article 58c Naturalization Act
The illegitimately born child of a Swiss father. In the event of close links with Switzerland, an application may also be filed on completion of the child’s 22nd year."

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...uergerung.html

She would still need to prove the close links as well which may be difficult to do.

You might do better to work towards getting Malaysian citizenship if you can. Then under the agreements that Switzerland has with Malaysia you would find it much easier to get a permit here:

"Applications for a residence permit from holders of a Malaysian passport for stays in Switzerland of more than 90 days for any travel purposes including gainful activity must be submitted directly at the cantonalmigration authority. The Regional Consular Center in Bangkok is not involved in the process and cannot answer inquiries regarding the documentary requirements or the application processing time.

This regulation applies to citizens of Brunei, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand and Singapore, according to the directives of the State Secretariat for Migration SEM for the issuance of national visa."
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Old 02.08.2015, 19:04
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Thank you for the concern.

I might have misnderstood a lot what I wrote.
I am south korean. My daugter is swiss. Her birth registration has been done in a swiss embassy. Making clothes is my one of best hobbies which will be into a business hopefully.

I thinks what matters is INCOME to be proven. Thanks.
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Old 02.08.2015, 19:13
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Sorry, I mixed the two Koreas up.

Whether you can prove a current income or not, you'll also need to convince the Swiss authorities that your business plan will be viable here. This is aimed at people already in the country, but it'll give you some info:

http://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu-gruenden...x.html?lang=en

You may well need to show that you already have customers/stores lined up who will buy your products.

Contact the Swiss embassy in Malaysia to find out if you have any chance of getting a permit to start with. Everything else will follow or not from that.
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Old 02.08.2015, 19:25
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

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...I thinks what matters is INCOME to be proven. Thanks.
Not just that. As far as I know, as a non-EU, you don't automatically have the right to live and work here. The fact your child is Swiss doesn't grant you any rights.

Unless you're independently wealthy, you would need to find an employer to sponsor a work permit for you. To do that, they have to prove they can't find a Swiss, EU, or non-EU already here on a permit to do the job. You can't just rock up here and start your own business, unfortunately.

As doropfiz says, if her father is willing to help it might make things easier, but there's no guarantee. You're not married, and he's not even living here.

I recommend contacting the Swiss Federal Office of Migration for accurate information regarding your options. The best we can do is just guess.
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Old 02.08.2015, 21:01
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Thanks for advices 3Wishes

My current monthly is from other resource, not from the clothing business.

Designing clothes has been beening my big passion as a hobby.
I hope however I will be able to do the work when my baby grows up more.
I am thinking to take it up on the base on Korea and Malaysia.
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Old 02.08.2015, 21:06
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Wow. It's been years since I studied EU law so please take this all with a pinch of salt. I couldn't find anything Swiss specific even with a German search and your best bet is still to call the embassy. That being said,

1) it is very clear that if your daughter were a citizen of an EU member state, then this would be clear cut. Successive ECJ rulings have confirmed that to deprive a parent who is a third country national who is sole carer of an EU minor, would make that minor's right to reside effectively useless. So even if the parent does not have sufficient means, the parent can stay with the child in the EU (Zambrano, altering Chen).

2) ECJ relationship with Switzerland is a minefield but for now, Swiss courts are looking at applicable judgments as precedence. Whilst the above touch on residence rights, which the Swiss have concluded through bilateral treaties with the EU, the rulings above rely on the EU treaty. So very unclear if applicable.

3) the ECHR however does bind the Swiss. Art 8 grants the right to family life and unequivocally grants parents access to the child. The difficulty here is that Art 8 does not grant a right to family reunion in Europe. So demonstrating that she is able to have a family life with you in Malaysia would most likely fail this test.

I'm giving this info even if not directly applicable to show that the rights of parents to remain is not a clear cut question. It's an area of law where one does see lots of cases brought to the highest level for clarification. So if you don't get the answer you want and you want to fight... Maybe we will see Leamia vs Switzerland in the ECHR soon
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Old 02.08.2015, 21:41
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Dear Veltlimer


Thank you for your relpy and encouragement.
Whilst reading your post realised really again I am not European. And
I have never known there are such complicated laws inter Europe countries and they are so influential.




Unfurtuantely it seems there is a slim chance to get my regidence permit.
I believed Switzerland was better for my daughter as Korea is a single raced nation if her father would not pay for the private school abroad.


Thank you.
will see....
I will do my best.
I wish the best my Lea(Leamia)
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Old 02.08.2015, 23:15
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Lea,
this is slightly off topic, but do you know etsy.com? There are people who sell self-made items such as clothes. If you have time to sew put them on etsy and try to take on orders. Have a look at it and think about.
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Old 04.08.2015, 13:20
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

Hello.

I saw this thread yesterday but thought someone else might reply correctly. I don't post much, and when I do someone seems to groan over personal anecdotes. But I think anecdotes help, especially lurkers.

The key to a solution to your problem is a Court of Justice of the EU case called Chen & Zhu v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Google 'Chen Zhu ECJ' to find it and discussions on it. I have written about it and you might find my description too but never mind -- there are newer analyses adding more recent cases.)

Mr Chen as Ms Zhu are Chinese nationals, the husband owns a business in China. They wanted a second child, in conflict with the then one-child policy. Having good legal and economic advice, they decided Ms Zhu would have her baby in Northern Ireland (under pre-2004 any child born in the Rep. of Ireland or N.I. had, or could opt for, Irish Republic citizenship). Catherine Chen was born on 16 Sept. 2000.

The question was whether possession of an EU/EEA/Swiss nationality *other than British* gave Catherine and derivatively her mother the right to live in (as it happened) Wales, UK.

This is an issue I knew and took advantage of when our youngest daughter was born in 1983, the year the British Nationality Act was changed to obliterate generalised 'jus soli'. She was born in County Antrim at a time when I lived in Algeria and when she had no right to another EU/EEA/Swiss citizenship. (Never mind that 10 years later my Mom told me I could have Swiss citizenship through facilitated naturalisation, and our Irish daughter became Swiss too. And suffice to say that our daughter learned French in Kindergarten at the École française de Séoul and later in Geneva and at the Lycée français Charles de Gaulle and in due course graduated from Oxford with a 1st Class degree and somehow got a grant there. That is all irrelevant to the main point and maybe I'll get another groan for it.)

Of course in 1983 EU law barely applied to Switzerland (I can think of some IP and transport issues where it probably did). Under current treatries EU law applies quite a bit, but often with reservations. As another has said, ECHR (Strasbourg Council of Europe) does apply, chiefly Art. 8, right to family life - but that won't help you very much in my opinion given your facts.

Chen/Zhu doesn't help you either unless some conditions are met:

1. There has to be a use of European establishment rights: it won't work for a British citizen child with a third-country national (you) in Britain nor for a Swiss child in Switzerland *unless* the 'Surinder Singh' qualification has been met. (You can Google that name, it's a famous law case in the ECJ.) So (I think) you would first have to live, say, in the UK for 6 months (there are cheap French nursery schools there (one of my many grandchildren goes to one) and German ones too.) Then I think the principle applies to Switzerland. Get professional advice. There is stuff on migraweb.ch that is tangential and a Swiss consul and the Swiss federal and cantonal migration offices should be helpful.

2. You need to be self-supporting and have health (sickness) insurance. I assume you are receiving child support. Obviously the child's father signed the État-civil and Swiss passport applications.

There are plenty of experts who can walk you through this, some free & gratis. Your business -- if it is online -- can be registered anywhere. You will have to pay taxes on your received profits to the country AND state pension (AVS, National Insurance, Social Security, etc.) you actually reside in and maybe VAT to the country to which goods are sent and file tax returns in the country where the company is set up (could be the UK, US or Singapore or anywhere for an online business). You can get around the Swiss and UK and US banking hassles (FATCA, W-9 and similar) with PayPal -- until you are established. Ask an accountant.

The more your child's Swiss father cooperates (anyway he must give his consent under The Hague Convention on Child Abduction assuming he shares custody to any degree) the easier it will be to accomplish what you propose. A forum like this isn't the place to solve complex legal problems, but it can give you ideas, and that's what I'm trying to do.

As I said, I don't check in here very often, and I travel a lot. Good luck.

BTW I am impressed by your English. I studied Korean for five years. That was long ago and I am useless now.
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Old 04.08.2015, 13:26
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Re: Foreign single mum needs a permit.

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Hello.

I saw this thread yesterday but thought someone else might reply correctly. I don't post much, and when I do someone seems to groan over personal anecdotes. But I think anecdotes help, especially lurkers.

The key to a solution to your problem is a Court of Justice of the EU case called Chen & Zhu v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Google 'Chen Zhu ECJ' to find it and discussions on it. I have written about it and you might find my description too but never mind -- there are newer analyses adding more recent cases.)

Mr Chen as Ms Zhu are Chinese nationals, the husband owns a business in China. They wanted a second child, in conflict with the then one-child policy. Having good legal and economic advice, they decided Ms Zhu would have her baby in Northern Ireland (under pre-2004 any child born in the Rep. of Ireland or N.I. had, or could opt for, Irish Republic citizenship). Catherine Chen was born on 16 Sept. 2000.

The question was whether possession of an EU/EEA/Swiss nationality *other than British* gave Catherine and derivatively her mother the right to live in (as it happened) Wales, UK.

This is an issue I knew and took advantage of when our youngest daughter was born in 1983, the year the British Nationality Act was changed to obliterate generalised 'jus soli'. She was born in County Antrim at a time when I lived in Algeria and when she had no right to another EU/EEA/Swiss citizenship. (Never mind that 10 years later my Mom told me I could have Swiss citizenship through facilitated naturalisation, and our Irish daughter became Swiss too. And suffice to say that our daughter learned French in Kindergarten at the École française de Séoul and later in Geneva and at the Lycée français Charles de Gaulle and in due course graduated from Oxford with a 1st Class degree and somehow got a grant there. That is all irrelevant to the main point and maybe I'll get another groan for it.)

Of course in 1983 EU law barely applied to Switzerland (I can think of some IP and transport issues where it probably did). Under current treatries EU law applies quite a bit, but often with reservations. As another has said, ECHR (Strasbourg Council of Europe) does apply, chiefly Art. 8, right to family life - but that won't help you very much in my opinion given your facts.

Chen/Zhu doesn't help you either unless some conditions are met:

1. There has to be a use of European establishment rights: it won't work for a British citizen child with a third-country national (you) in Britain nor for a Swiss child in Switzerland *unless* the 'Surinder Singh' qualification has been met. (You can Google that name, it's a famous law case in the ECJ.) So (I think) you would first have to live, say, in the UK for 6 months (there are cheap French nursery schools there (one of my many grandchildren goes to one) and German ones too.) Then I think the principle applies to Switzerland. Get professional advice. There is stuff on migraweb.ch that is tangential and a Swiss consul and the Swiss federal and cantonal migration offices should be helpful.

2. You need to be self-supporting and have health (sickness) insurance. I assume you are receiving child support. Obviously the child's father signed the État-civil and Swiss passport applications.

There are plenty of experts who can walk you through this, some free & gratis. Your business -- if it is online -- can be registered anywhere. You will have to pay taxes on your received profits to the country AND state pension (AVS, National Insurance, Social Security, etc.) you actually reside in and maybe VAT to the country to which goods are sent and file tax returns in the country where the company is set up (could be the UK, US or Singapore or anywhere for an online business). You can get around the Swiss and UK and US banking hassles (FATCA, W-9 and similar) with PayPal -- until you are established. Ask an accountant.

The more your child's Swiss father cooperates (anyway he must give his consent under The Hague Convention on Child Abduction assuming he shares custody to any degree) the easier it will be to accomplish what you propose. A forum like this isn't the place to solve complex legal problems, but it can give you ideas, and that's what I'm trying to do.

As I said, I don't check in here very often, and I travel a lot. Good luck.
I mention Chen above but I'm not sure it applies to Switzerland as the rulings were based on the EC treaty and not parts of which Switzerland has agreed to on a bilateral basis. That being said, the core principles of a right being useless as a minor without the parent can be deemed to apply to any country and Swiss courts do look to the ECJ.... So who knows. It is really not clear cut and I echo the need to seek in detail, legal advice.
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