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View Poll Results: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?
YES! Dual or more nationality. 28 50.91%
YES! I will give up my existing passport to become purely Swiss. 4 7.27%
NO! I don’t want to lose my native passport. 3 5.45%
NO! I don’t think having a swiss passport will make any real difference to my life. 10 18.18%
Haven’t decided yet... 10 18.18%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 10.08.2015, 14:05
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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Your children may not thank you either as they have to do military service.
Isn't that like a free version of the boy scouts but with less danger?
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  #42  
Old 10.08.2015, 14:16
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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Your children may not thank you either as they have to do military service.
No problem avoiding that if they don't want to do it....
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  #43  
Old 10.08.2015, 14:28
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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Swiss law on forced inheritance.

I've seen families devastated by this when one spouse suddenly passes away.

A non-citizen may claim Heimatrecht so that his/her estate is treated under his/her own country's laws. Which is what we have done, as we wish to ensure that all goes to the surviving spouse and then to charity, rather than to relatives who do not need (or in some instances, deserve) the money.
....
In Switzerland, the normal rules of inheritance are such that the surviving spouse gets 50% of the jointly held assets and the other 50% goes to the children (if any). This is somewhat simplified, but the problem is that if there is a family home, and the children want to get their dirty hands on the money as soon as possible, the house has usually has to be sold, leaving the surviving spouse "homeless". For the "normal" Swiss, who tend to live in rented accommodation, this is not a problem.
But, anyway, the classic solution to this problem is for the couple to set up a Marriage and Inheritance Contract (ger: Ehe- und Erbvertrag) with a Notar. This protects the remaining spouse, and the children's right to inheritance from the deceased parent is postponed until the remaining parent dies.
(ger: link )
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  #44  
Old 10.08.2015, 14:42
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

If I'm correctly interpreting what Meloncollie is referring to, the forced inheritance stuff is not just about children but the fact that in the absence of children, the court dealing with probate then starts looking down other lines such as siblings of the deceased and their progeny, and failing that aunts and uncles of the deceased and their progeny. That leaves an awful lot of people with a potential claim on the estate in a large-ish family.
I'm an only child of 2 only children, and my mother's will was exceedingly straightforward yet I've just had to complete a form from the court declaring that my mother had no other marriages than to my late father and no other children either within or outside marriage. This for the purpose of the court discharging its legal obligation to check whether there are other statutory heirs
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  #45  
Old 10.08.2015, 14:42
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

Has anyone done this in practice?

From what I read the "heirs" i.e. children have to sign that they agree to this, I'm not sure how that would work with young children?

In our case I assume my wife would end up with 75% (her half, plus half of my half), and be the trustee for the other 25% for the kids. The goal would be 100% to the wife and the kids have to behave or get a job

Or am I mis-reading?
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  #46  
Old 10.08.2015, 14:56
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

The irony AIUI is that unmarried partners without children can leave everything to their partner, but once married it's illegal to disinherit the extended family without their consent
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  #47  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:03
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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The irony AIUI is that unmarried partners without children can leave everything to their partner
No, that is incorrect.

Unmarried partners can leave 25% to their partner, the rest goes to the extended family of the deceased.

Tom
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  #48  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:12
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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In Switzerland, the normal rules of inheritance are such that the surviving spouse gets 50% of the jointly held assets and the other 50% goes to the children (if any). This is somewhat simplified, but the problem is that if there is a family home, and the children want to get their dirty hands on the money as soon as possible, the house has usually has to be sold, leaving the surviving spouse "homeless". For the "normal" Swiss, who tend to live in rented accommodation, this is not a problem.
But, anyway, the classic solution to this problem is for the couple to set up a Marriage and Inheritance Contract (ger: Ehe- und Erbvertrag) with a Notar. This protects the remaining spouse, and the children's right to inheritance from the deceased parent is postponed until the remaining parent dies.
(ger: link )
They already have 50% of jointly held assets!
What your talking about is the rest.

It's only a solution if the children sign, there being no point or benefit to them by doing so, good luck with that anyway

Of course the wife does get 50%, she could get nothing under English law.
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  #49  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:14
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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FSo theoretically you can create an alternate will asking for the right to distribute what you choose, and everyone has to sign it when they are over 18 in order for it to be legal??
Yes.

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As I understand it:
Under swiss inheritance laws there are obligations to leave percentages to children etc. However it is that the land where one expires, not one's nationality that determines inheritance issues. Does anyone have a comment on this?
It is not where one dies, but where any property is located that matters.

Case in point: MIL was Swiss and died in CH, but also had property in Italy. Swiss assets were divided by Swiss law, Italian assets by Italian law.

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In Switzerland, the normal rules of inheritance are such that the surviving spouse gets 50% of the jointly held assets and the other 50% goes to the children (if any). This is somewhat simplified, but the problem is that if there is a family home, and the children want to get their dirty hands on the money as soon as possible, the house has usually has to be sold, leaving the surviving spouse "homeless". For the "normal" Swiss, who tend to live in rented accommodation, this is not a problem.
But, anyway, the classic solution to this problem is for the couple to set up a Marriage and Inheritance Contract (ger: Ehe- und Erbvertrag) with a Notar. This protects the remaining spouse, and the children's right to inheritance from the deceased parent is postponed until the remaining parent dies.
This is true of assets acquired during the marriage, but not for any assets held before the marriage. When we bought out apartment last year, that bit was included by the Notary in the contract.

Tom
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  #50  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:18
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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They already have 50% of jointly held assets!
What your talking about is the rest.

It's only a solution if the children sign, there being no point or benefit to them by doing so, good luck with that anyway

Of course the wife does get 50%, she could get nothing under English law.
What well-raised kid, even 18 years old, is going to refuse to sign a document if it is rationally explained to them that it is is their fathers interests and will mean that when he passes away he can have a better prepared will that is more fair to everyone? Kids by that age are hardly legal experts who will know anything about wills (or possibly even care) and they trust their father (who pays for everything for them at that age anyway) to make the right financial decisions.
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  #51  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:24
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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What well-raised kid, even 18 years old, is going to refuse to sign a document if it is rationally explained to them that it is is their fathers interests and will mean that when he passes away he can have a better prepared will that is more fair to everyone? Kids by that age are hardly legal experts who will know anything about wills (or possibly even care) and they trust their father (who pays for everything for them at that age anyway) to make the right financial decisions.
There's also the "if you don't sign you can live on the streets now and fund your own education" argument.

No decent parent would go that far, but not many 18 yo are self-sufficient and having the crappiest bike/mofa in the class/lehre cohort, no vacation and no new clothes, no guests in the house and parents not speaking to them may make them think twice!
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  #52  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:30
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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What well-raised kid, even 18 years old, is going to refuse to sign a document if it is rationally explained to them that it is is their fathers interests and will mean that when he passes away he can have a better prepared will that is more fair to everyone? Kids by that age are hardly legal experts who will know anything about wills (or possibly even care) and they trust their father (who pays for everything for them at that age anyway) to make the right financial decisions.
My friend's well-raised kid, when asked by his father to sign an agreement allowing his mother to live in her beloved home for her lifetime, happily did so.

And some years (and a rising property market) later that well-raised kid married the daughter-in-law from hell. Who would not rest until her husband she got her hands on the money. Son gave in to the nagging, claimed he was forced to sign under duress, and got the agreement set aside.

Mom now lives all alone in an Alterswohnung, surrounded by strangers.

How sharper than a serpent's tooth...
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  #53  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:40
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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They already have 50% of jointly held assets!
What your talking about is the rest.

It's only a solution if the children sign, there being no point or benefit to them by doing so, good luck with that anyway

Of course the wife does get 50%, she could get nothing under English law.
OK. 50% of the spouse's assets (ger: Gesetzlicher Erbteil) , assuming the spouse has not used his/her option to reduce it to the minimum quota (ger: Pflichtteil of 25%).

A Marriage/Inheritance Contract between parents requires no consent from the children (who may no even have been born at the date of the contract) and it's purpose is to protect the remaining spouse (possibly against the immediate interests of the children).
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  #54  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:42
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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My friend's well-raised kid, when asked by his father to sign an agreement allowing his mother to live in her beloved home for her lifetime, happily did so.

And some years (and a rising property market) later that well-raised kid married the daughter-in-law from hell. Who would not rest until her husband she got her hands on the money. Son gave in to the nagging, claimed he was forced to sign under duress, and got the agreement set aside.

Mom now lives all alone in an Alterswohnung, surrounded by strangers.

How sharper than a serpent's tooth...
That is awful, and that lily-livered wretch of a son deserves to get nothing if he allowed that to happen to his mother against her wishes.

I can only hope to raise a good family and pray that those kind of worst-case scenarios never rear their ugly head.
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  #55  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:43
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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My friend's well-raised kid, when asked by his father to sign an agreement allowing his mother to live in her beloved home for her lifetime, happily did so.

And some years (and a rising property market) later that well-raised kid married the daughter-in-law from hell. Who would not rest until her husband she got her hands on the money. Son gave in to the nagging, claimed he was forced to sign under duress, and got the agreement set aside.

Mom now lives all alone in an Alterswohnung, surrounded by strangers.
What did she do with her 75% of the proceeds?

Tom
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  #56  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:51
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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What did she do with her 75% of the proceeds?

Tom
Presumably invested to pay for the old peoples home, as no bank would give her a mortgage without income in order to stay in her house.

The trouble isn't the 75%, it's finding the 25% in cash without selling the home.
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  #57  
Old 10.08.2015, 15:58
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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. . .
This is true of assets acquired during the marriage, but not for any assets held before the marriage. When we bought out apartment last year, that bit was included by the Notary in the contract.

Tom
Ah yes. This is not Inheritance Rights (Ger: Erbrecht), this is Ownership rights (or whatever the english translation of the german Güterrecht is) and there are 3 of these here. (a) Completely Separate assets, (b) fully joint assets or (c) heritage (ger: Errungenschaft)
Heritage is the default, if you have not agreed anything else. That is, your share of the assets is roughly the remainder of what you brought into the marriage + what you inherited in the meantime + 50% of the assets which accrued during the marriage.
So, if this is not all cleared up before death, there will be plenty scope for argument amongst the remaining beneficiaries.
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Old 10.08.2015, 15:58
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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What well-raised kid, even 18 years old, is going to refuse to sign a document if it is rationally explained to them that it is is their fathers interests and will mean that when he passes away he can have a better prepared will that is more fair to everyone? Kids by that age are hardly legal experts who will know anything about wills (or possibly even care) and they trust their father (who pays for everything for them at that age anyway) to make the right financial decisions.
Any well educated kid might be advised to take independent legal advise when asked to give up rights given in law. Especially when being advised by someone with a vested interest & able to put pressure on them. Of course in many countries signing under duress could make it null & void.
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Old 10.08.2015, 15:58
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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More interested in my young kids (5 and 2) having the option of dual passports.. Just in case it gives them some advantage later when the UK falls apart
Why do you think the UK is going to fall apart?
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Old 10.08.2015, 16:02
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Re: Do you plan on getting a Swiss passport?

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What did she do with her 75% of the proceeds?

Tom
I suspect a good chunk went to lawyers.

And the rest will likely be used up funding the Altersheim.

But sure as shootin' she doesn't plan to leave one Rappen behind for the lily-livered son.


---

Inheritance issues can bring out the worst in people. I've seen it time and time again, in many countries and legal systems.

Which is why I have claimed Heimatrecht. US law is not water tight - especially as we have our fair share of snake-skinned lawyers in the family - but the trusts I have set up are the best way I know how to ensure that my estate goes where I want it to.

After we are both gone, the bulk of our estate goes to charity. The charities I have named are small groups, each running most of the time on a wing and a prayer. I want my gift to them to be used to do a bit of good in this world, not to be eaten up by lawyers' fees should my wishes be challenged.
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