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  #21  
Old 14.10.2015, 15:39
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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They won't even know, care, or ask you, about (un-)employment, so you shouldn't worry.
This varies. Canton Zug for example does ask.
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  #22  
Old 14.10.2015, 16:01
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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This varies. Canton Zug for example does ask.
As does my Gemeinde in canton SZ.

(Note that I am not speaking for all of SZ; I can only speak for my experience.)

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And I assume any stories being bandied about on here by other users, about C-permits being rescinded if one isn't in full-time employment and/or if one is in receipt of any kind of benefits, are simply to be disregarded as rumours (or regarded as poor advice)...
No, what you should assume is that the various cantons and Gemeinden have varying interpretations of the federal law and vary in their practices in implementing the law.

Everything is local in Switzerland - even federal law.
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  #23  
Old 14.10.2015, 16:09
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

Same here- unless you can demonstrate that you are financially independent and will not become a 'burden' to the community once you get your C permit and run out of money.
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  #24  
Old 14.10.2015, 16:15
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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This varies. Canton Zug for example does ask.
However it's a multiple choice question IIRC, Other / part time work / Self employed are also possible answers. Anyone could find 4 hours freelance work the month they fill in their form if worried.

No requirement to state earnings unlike a B permit.
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:21
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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Same here- unless you can demonstrate that you are financially independent and will not become a 'burden' to the community once you get your C permit and run out of money.
We had to provide nothing whatsoever for ours. No documentation of any sort just the signed form and the current permit.
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:27
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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We had to provide nothing whatsoever for ours. No documentation of any sort just the signed form and the current permit.
Thats totally correct & normal for a C permit renewal. Someone else obviously 'confused'
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  #27  
Old 14.10.2015, 17:00
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

Can confirm I was on unemployment when I was awarded my C permit.
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  #28  
Old 14.10.2015, 18:23
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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No, what you should assume is that the various cantons and Gemeinden have varying interpretations of the federal law and vary in their practices in implementing the law.
Everything is local in Switzerland - even federal law.
Well it won't be my Gemeinde that decides, but the Migrationsamt in Aarau. The Gemeinde simply sends things on to be processed, so I was told this afternoon.

I'm already on a C-permit. But unlike the last time my permit was checked/updated, I am now neither employed, nor registered as unemployed, nor am I on social welfare benefits from the Gemeinde. (I ticked the Rentner/redditiere box, and wrote in the comments section 'IV(AI)'). Hence the query here.

And as you can see here: What happens if you become unemployed while C permit application is in progress there were users claiming that the C-permit can indeed be taken away if you're not working... It seems that these users are confused or creating confusion themselves.

On the cited thread (link above) for example, users were claiming that it (rescindment of the C-permit) does happen, but when I researched and found the cases that were in the press, it became clear the individuals whose permits were rescinded were all still on B-permits. It is easy for these users to bandy about information, but when one researches these things, the actual facts come to light.

Thus far I haven't come across any proof of, or a single case, where a C-permit has been rescinded/not renewed, other than for the committing of violent crimes.
This is why I am assuming/believing that 'a C-permit can't be rescinded for any reason except for the committing of violent crimes'. What I don't know though is if my assumption is right or wrong!
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  #29  
Old 14.10.2015, 20:33
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

Hey, instead of trying to guess what the rules are based on other people's reported experience, how 'bout we look them up? It's a radical idea, I know.

Google "Niederlassungsbewilligung widerrufen" and this is one of the links you get - the federal law:
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a63

Summary in English:

A C permit can be revoked for one of four reasons:
1) you have given false information, or withheld relevant information, during the permit application process.
2) you have been sentenced to long-term imprisonment or some sort of equivalent punishment. [sorry, I didn't follow the references to see exactly what the latter is]
3) you have committed a serious offence against law and order, either in Switzerland or abroad - or you represent a security threat to Switzerland, again either domestic or foreign.
4) you or a dependent of yours is reliant on social welfare, long-term and in significant amounts.

If you have been legally resident in Switzerland for longer than 15 years, uninterrupted, the last of these reasons is excluded.
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  #30  
Old 14.10.2015, 21:33
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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A C permit can be revoked for one of four reasons:
1) you have given false information, or withheld relevant information, during the permit application process.
2) you have been sentenced to long-term imprisonment or some sort of equivalent punishment. [sorry, I didn't follow the references to see exactly what the latter is]
3) you have committed a serious offence against law and order, either in Switzerland or abroad - or you represent a security threat to Switzerland, again either domestic or foreign.
4) you or a dependent of yours is reliant on social welfare, long-term and in significant amounts.

If you have been legally resident in Switzerland for longer than 15 years, uninterrupted, the last of these reasons is excluded.
Thank you very much for that! Most enlightening too!

None of the reasons apply to me obviously. I have never been entitled to or been on social welfare and I do not have relatives/dependants who are even legally resident in Switzerland at present either, so basically I am fine for the 'renewal'.
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  #31  
Old 14.10.2015, 22:44
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

Just depends how 4) is interpreted and whether AI is considered as social welfare?
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  #32  
Old 14.10.2015, 22:53
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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Just depends how 4) is interpreted and whether AI is considered as social welfare?
That's what I was wondering too. Though I sway towards 'no it isn't social welfare', it is a benefit that I have become entitled to through no fault of my own. I was in fact forced onto it since my employer requested it for me from the canton, whilst illegally terminating my job contract by telephone(!) and without respecting the correct notice period. Note: I never requested to be put onto disability and it is my firm belief that had the contract not been terminated (and in the absurd and illegal manner in which it was), I would still be working today, years later...

In any case, more to the point: My understanding is that social welfare is (regular) financial assistance from the municipality where one legally resides which is available only once unemployment benefit has been completely exhausted or if it was never due/entitled to in the first place.
Moreover as far as I am aware, social welfare is the type which eventually in theory has to be paid back, once the individual is earning enough to enable him/her to do so. IV/AI and even EL/PC never need to be paid back.
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  #33  
Old 14.10.2015, 23:04
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

I have to say I find this difficult to deal with. I have friends who have severe disability who have had their disability re-assessed on VERY strict guidelines and payments cut- as said, despite being severely disabled. And you are saying you are not disabled? How can being made unemployed lead to someone being considered permanently disabled and unable to work- forever- without disability? Don't get it, sorry.

AI is supposed to re-train, even in very different fields/professions to the initial one at the time of temporary disability. Only very severe cases are on permanent disability, if they truly cannot be retrained to do another job.

Last edited by Odile; 14.10.2015 at 23:20.
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  #34  
Old 14.10.2015, 23:25
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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I have to say I find this difficult to deal with. I have friends who have severe disability who have had their disability re-assessed on VERY strict guidelines and payments cut- as said, despite being severely disabled. And you are saying you are not disabled? How can being made unemployed lead to someone being considered permanently disabled and unable to work- forever- without disability? Don't get it, sorry.
I am not entitled to unemployment benefit for two clear reasons (according to RAV): Firstly, I am off sick 100%. Secondly since my contract was terminated over the phone, I don't have a letter saying the contract has been terminated and thus can't prove it, - i could invent the date etc. The employer refuses to cooperate in that sense, as issuing a letter now, would mean they are firing me now, several years later, and then they would have to pay my salary and benefits for the past 5 years or so... something they are not going to do. The employer and myself basically have nothing to do with one another any longer, although RAV claims that I am technically/legally an employee still of that company.

I am not on disability because I am unemployed. I am actually not officially unemployed and never have been since working there. I am just not employed/non-working.

If you are off sick for a long period of time, generally at first the employer pays you, but at some stage a Krankentaggeldversicherung takes over and pays your salary instead. This is what happened to me. But they pay your salary for a maximum of 2 years.
In the meantime the employer can terminate your contract (they ought to respect some notice period and send a registered letter, but in my case they didn't, this is now beside the point as in any case the Krankentaggeldversicherung paid me.

After the 2 years were over of that insurance company paying my salary, then IV/AI take over ... because... and this is the important point:
because the employer requests disability for the employee they intend to get rid of (and ultimately do get rid of, shifting the problem elsewhere - or so they believe). By the time the 2 years of the insurance paying the salary are up, the decision from the IV/AI has come through, in my case in my favour: permanent disability due to what happened in the workplace, 100% IV/AI.
I was astonished, as I didn't ask for it and I certainly didn't expect it, - my employer asked for it 'on my behalf'. Can you imagine being told in your 30s, you don't have to work again?!
You have to understand that this is what some companies do to get rid of people. You think I was the only one? There were 7 of us off sick at the time. All 7 fired. (And with 3 of us the notice period was not respected.) 3 of us are now on permanent IV/AI. The other two were in their early/mid-40s. Oh, and that was just when I worked there!!
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  #35  
Old 14.10.2015, 23:37
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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Hey, instead of trying to guess what the rules are based on other people's reported experience, how 'bout we look them up? It's a radical idea, I know.

Google "Niederlassungsbewilligung widerrufen" and this is one of the links you get - the federal law:
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a63

Summary in English:

A C permit can be revoked for one of four reasons:
1) you have given false information, or withheld relevant information, during the permit application process.
2) you have been sentenced to long-term imprisonment or some sort of equivalent punishment. [sorry, I didn't follow the references to see exactly what the latter is]
3) you have committed a serious offence against law and order, either in Switzerland or abroad - or you represent a security threat to Switzerland, again either domestic or foreign.
4) you or a dependent of yours is reliant on social welfare, long-term and in significant amounts.

If you have been legally resident in Switzerland for longer than 15 years, uninterrupted, the last of these reasons is excluded.
That is to Revoke a C Permit. How do you interpret that? It could mean a C permit that is still valid, and not Renewing a permit after expiry could be different altogether??
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  #36  
Old 14.10.2015, 23:40
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

I am sorry, this is sheer madness. Not your fault- but sheer madness. I would love to know which company that was and get them dealt with, truly. This is costing the community millions over the period of time.

But surely, you could choose to ask for retraining and go back to work- expose the system and get the firm to officially terminate the contract. Otherwise it is plain FRAUD (not yours- theirs) and truly unfair on those people who AI is being severely reassessed and cut due to the massive deficit of AI. Crazy.
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  #37  
Old 14.10.2015, 23:56
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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That is to Revoke a C Permit. How do you interpret that? It could mean a C permit that is still valid, and not Renewing a permit after expiry could be different altogether??
The permission itself (the Bewilligung) doesn't expire and thus doesn't need renewal; the document attesting it (the Ausweis) simply has to be updated/reissued at five-year intervals.

In this regard the "renewal" of a C permit is completely different to that of a shorter-term permit type (B, L, etc.)
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  #38  
Old 15.10.2015, 00:16
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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Just depends how 4) is interpreted and whether AI is considered as social welfare?
It's insurance, the same as pillar 1, amazed you don't know that.
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  #39  
Old 15.10.2015, 09:00
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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I am sorry, this is sheer madness. Not your fault- but sheer madness.
I couldn't agree more. But you'd be surprised at the number of people who work for that company that end up going down that route. Illness-wise they have a disproportionately high % (6%) of staff off sick overall and the branch where I worked was the highest of all (14%). They accordingly have an extreme number of IV/AI cases and ultimately long term beneficiaries on their books. The numbers involved nationwide are simply mind-boggling.
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This is costing the community millions over the period of time.
Again, absolutely spot on. Just the sheer cost of assessing the cases and managing them, (IV appointments, compulsory medical appointments, paperwork, staff) must be mammoth over time, not mention then paying out 1st pillar IV and possibly in some cases even EL/PC.
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You could choose to ask for retraining
Costs them money and the IV/AI have no guarantee that any measure of retraining gets the individual off invalidity benefit long term. It's a gamble for them too in that sense. I don't think I can just say to them "Hey you know, I want to be a movie star in the USA, please retrain me at your cost no expense spared (and incidentally, as it's entirely my employer's fault I'm on IV, bill them for all of it)" - they can't do that and they unhappily can't bill my employer for it, although in my opinion, the law should be changed so that the IV can bill the employer/former employer who generated the case and the work involved in managing the case for everything.

All I got during the time the IV claim was being assessed was a brief German language course (because I switched language regions) to assist in writing CVs, cover letters and brush up grammar etc. (The equivalent of what I would have got for free had I have been on unemployment benefit I guess). Someone has to pay for all of these courses and organizing them etc.

Schemes to retrain are in place, there are many out there, but they have a very low success rate (say 10-15%) according to reports (more often than not are in companies which receive massive subsidies from the state too), I've heard on the radio or read in the press. (Not heard anything ultra-recent.)
Moreover the amount of time that an individual can spend retraining is limited to one year. I already have used up 4 months on some totally loopy scheme they got me to go on in day centre where people were plainly ill, either on IV/AI or being assessed for it (even for a second time, especially if on social welfare, most had had burn-outs and a good deal had been through mobbing (especially from large companies, there were 2 Migros employees for example), ultimately it just made me feel worse (I felt desperately sorry for some of them, as I know what it's like to go through mobbing in a large firm) and so I put a stop to it as it was a complete shambles, waste of time (I was wasting time, not only my own, but also the IV's), and ultimately a huge financial burden on the state as the place is heavily subsidized, totally inefficient and gets through money like water (I saw). Moreover the transport to get to the people to these courses and/or retraining schemes also has to be paid for by the IV/AI!

On the whole the entire IV/AI system is slow, inefficient, highly bureaucratic and difficult to change at all. Once an 'IV Rente' has been granted, it is quite difficult to get the beneficiary off it, for they have already been off work for some time before the point when it was granted, you can't just reverse all of that in a flash and not without legal repercussions either (the beneficiary can also appeal the decision).
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expose the system
I'd like to expose what that firm does (severe mobbing, illegal termination of contracts, systematic shifting of people onto IV/AI), in the press, but I do not know how to go about doing that, nor do I know the risks involved, legally speaking. For one individual like myself against a large company, it is daunting. I am satisfied with the outcome, to an extent, and feel I have had partial closure, as they (as a firm) pay my monthly income in part, (once the IV decision comes through, they have no choice, - after all you can't illegally terminate someone's contract by phone and during illness and not expect any consequences).
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those people who AI is being severely reassessed and cut due to the massive deficit of AI. Crazy.
Unless there is a change in the law whereby a certain illness is no longer covered by IV/AI, then I don't see how, anyone's 'IV Rente' at all can be taken away from them (unless of course someone generally does get better/recovers completely, like if they had been in an accident, broken several limbs, which then mended over time) - it's permanent up to retirement age (currently 64/5, maybe in the future 67 by the time we get there, who knows?), at least that is the idea of it.
So I don't believe people's (including those who you know) 'IV Rente' is slashed/taken away just because there is huge deficit of IV/AI, I think that that deficit is going to be filled from other sources such as higher VAT etc.
Incidentally I would be interested in viewing a list of illnesses which 'get you' an 'IV Rente' and list of illnesses that no longer get you one, if such a list exists!
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It's insurance, the same as pillar 1, amazed you don't know that.
Conclusion: IV/AI is not social welfare and thus simply being unable to work due to long term illness (and/or being on IV/AI) is not a reason Switzerland will revoke a foreigner's C-permit.

Last edited by plumtree; 15.10.2015 at 11:02.
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  #40  
Old 15.10.2015, 10:39
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Re: C permits have to be renewed?

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If you have been legally resident in Switzerland for longer than 15 years, uninterrupted, the last of these reasons is excluded.[/I]
Reading this it just occurred to me that the C permit renewal where we were asked to provide a copy of OH's employment contract, a copy of our tax filing, the document attesting to no social help, etc. was the renewal just before the 15 year mark.

One can't help but wonder what would have happened to that renewal application if we had had not been on sound financial footing.


But again YMMV by canton, Gemeinde, phase of the moon...
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