Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Permits/visas/government
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 17.11.2015, 21:38
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,466
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,227 Times in 823 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Children’s wellbeing firstmost – KESB – permit?

As this is not my situation, I’m writing very abstractedly. I’d be grateful if anyone could point me to relevant laws or cases. Thanks.

2 parents, never married, 3 children together.
Let’s just call them Bob and Sue.

Sue has citizenship of a non-EU country, let us call it Go-land (though this is just a fantasy name for a real country) and also Swiss citizenship.
Bob has only one citizenship, namely of country Go-land.
All 3 children have citizenship of Go-land and also Swiss citizenship.

Sue has her usual place of residence in Switzerland, but is on a longterm visit to Go-land.
Bob and the children are in Switzerland.
Bob’s permit for Switzerland is about to expire.

Sue does intend to return to Switzerland from Go-land, but her return date is several months AFTER Bob’s permit for Switzerland is set to expire.

Could anyone advise, please, of known legal arguments or the basis thereof, upon which to appeal for Bob to be allowed to stay in Switzerland? If Bob is sent out of Switzerland, the children would have to be placed in formal care in Switzerland, since neither of their parents will be here. Unless they go back to Go-land with Bob where, from all accounts, they would be in danger (and that’s another story, not for this question).

If this has been dealt with elsewhere, I’d appreciate the links. I’m exhausted, and this time just cannot do the research. And yes, it is urgent.
Thank you very much to anyone who can make a helpful contribution.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 17.11.2015, 21:50
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,500
Groaned at 169 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 9,633 Times in 5,503 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Children’s wellbeing firstmost – KESB – permit?

Is his permit because he's a dependent of Sue, i.e. on a concubine permit? In which case it would just be a simple renewal.

I'm sorry, but the situation in Go-land is very pertinent to this. If the children would be in danger if they went there, then that may be a good reason to extend Bob's permit so he can look after them.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 19.11.2015, 13:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,466
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,227 Times in 823 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Children’s wellbeing firstmost – KESB – permit?

Thank you, Medea Fleecestealer.

No, Bob's permit is not on the basis of his being Sue's dependent. That's why it is not a simple renewal. Bob and Sue are not married, and their connection is unstable.
Bob has a permit of his own that expired, and has been extended by the Immigration Office without prejudice, for another few weeks. During that time, Bob is required to supply a lot of documents, and is collecting these.

It will, however, be impossible for Bob to supply them all within the short time specified by the Immigration Office. Therefore Bob is looking for the legal grounds upon which to argue that he should be granted an extension so he can stay here and look after his Swiss children.... while he is collecting the documentation, and at the very least until Sue gets back.

The situation in Go-land is such that the children are in danger there. That is why they are in Switzerland, now, instead of Bob just quietly taking them back to Go-land. In Go-land, they belong to a minority group which is known to be the target of violence. I think it wiser not to go into that too much here, because Go-land is a dangerous place for people of this minority group, and this is a public forum, but the danger is - at least for someone with knowledge of Go-land - real. From here, I have been in touch with an expert in Go-land, who concurs.

Sue is in Go-land, and she (having a different status from that of her children) is alright there. She will return to Switzerland in some months' time. And it is not clear what will happen then as Bob is the primary care-giver, and over the years Sue has spent many long visits with Bob and the children, but also many long periods away from them. It is not clear whether Sue has any interest in becoming a caregiver, and this question can be discussed with the Social Services and the Child Protection Authority only once Sue is back in Switzerland.

Sue seems to think that the Swiss Immigration Office will automatically extend Bob's Permit, simply because Bob is taking care of the children as he usually does, and furthermore because Sue will not be back in Switzerland for several months. This, however, is not what the "without prejudice" permit says. It says: documents, or else Bob is out.

I doubt very much that, at this stage, Bob could reasonalbly hope for any kind of permanent permit. That stands to reason since naturally Bob must suppply the Immigration Office all the documentation that they require about himself and the children. It is just that collecting this takes some months (= longer than the short permit that is soon to expire), and so Bob and his children need that Bob be granted a period of grace (another "without prejudice" permit extension), so that the children can be safe now, and so that Bob's case can be evaluated properly when all the papers arrive.

Please, does anyone know which laws rule about such matters, and how and with which arguments to appeal to the Immigration Office that letting Bob stay, right now, even on a temporary basis, is in the best interests of the 3 Swiss children? Or any precendents in court judgments?

Thank you very much.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 19.11.2015, 13:49
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,500
Groaned at 169 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 9,633 Times in 5,503 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Children’s wellbeing firstmost – KESB – permit?

I think Bob needs a lawyer who understands both immigration and child welfare laws. Can child social services suggest any group that may be able to help/advise him? Can he not argue that he is the primary caregiver and as such should be allowed to stay in Switzerland with the children?

Sounds as if someone needs to tell Sue to get back here immediately if she doesn't want her children taken into care. Given her long absences they may decide to keep them permanently, especially if Bob isn't granted a new permit.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 19.11.2015, 14:10
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,466
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,227 Times in 823 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Children’s wellbeing firstmost – KESB – permit?

Yes, I also think there is a high risk that the Child Protection authorities will - if Bob's permit is not renewed - place the children into care. Sue either doesn't believe this or does not mind if that happens... which can, however, be determined only once Sue returns and is willing (or compelled) to talk to the the Social Services.

If his temporary permit is not extended at least for long enough for him to collect the papers, Bob faces a terrible choice.... between taking his children back to Go-land knowing they will be in certain danger there, or leaving them here in the hope that the official care provided will be turn out to be good for them. An awful situation to be in!

Yes, we're looking into trying to find legal help, but so far no success in getting a slot with an advisor at the free places who could really help. Knocking on the door of another such advice centre now, and anyway then there's also the question of funding all this, since Bob doesn't have the money for such services, or only for very limited consultations. Oh, dear. That's why I was hoping someone could point me in the direction of the legal stuff, to read up on everything, so as to enable Bob to go to such a legal advice person informed, to save the costs, and understanding, for himself, what the rules are.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 19.11.2015, 14:52
Island Monkey's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wallis
Posts: 3,380
Groaned at 62 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,965 Times in 1,469 Posts
Island Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Children’s wellbeing firstmost – KESB – permit?

I don't know if Bob's permit will or can be extended. Is he working is he is not Sue's dependant? How did he get his permit originally?

However regarding the children... what the hell is Sue doing? Surely she should be preparing to head back to Switzerland to care for her kids if necessary rather than the possibility of them being put in care!!!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Island Monkey for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 19.11.2015, 23:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,466
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,227 Times in 823 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Children’s wellbeing firstmost – KESB – permit?

I'm not completely sure about the grounds for Bob's original permit, though have been told that it will not be renewed just like that.
Yes, Island Monkey, one does wonder what Sue is thinking... it is not clear.

Now I'm collecting info on whether - and how! - a decision by the Migration Office can be paused, somehow, (by grace?) hopefully on the basis that Bob is doing his very best to provide the information they request of him, but the documents cannot be assembled before the date they've set.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18.12.2015, 02:39
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 198
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 114 Times in 70 Posts
Caryl has earned the respect of manyCaryl has earned the respect of manyCaryl has earned the respect of many
Re: Children’s wellbeing firstmost – KESB – permit?

I was asked to comment a month ago but I check into this forum only irregularly and saw the message only today.

The issues are (guessing from hidden facts) that Go-land is or may be engaged in civil war, perhaps genocide. In principle asylum seekers can not be sent back to a place where there is no safe internal refuge. But as we know from US deportations to El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras private (i.e. criminal or non-government supported ethnic strife-driven) danger may not hinder deportation.

Thus in the cases of Syria and Eritrea nobody is deported: the governments are blamed. Nationals of Afghanistan, Iraq and much of Africa are deported if their home countries will take them.

Appeal to the ECtHR is possible based on Art 8 right to family life, and lodging an appeal might delay things until "Sue" decides what she wants to do.

Financial and social prospects for the individuals, and political reluctance to support the children with state funds if a Swiss parent is able and willing to do so matters.

But lack of facts and inexperience with the Swiss asylum system means I can only offer generalities and guesses.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Caryl for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
kesb children-first




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EU Citizen - Permit B holder - Registration of spouse + children Freedom2015 Permits/visas/government 8 03.06.2015 21:58
Naturalization for children of parents on Ci permit? saez Permits/visas/government 19 30.01.2015 21:11
C Permit for children? szdro Permits/visas/government 3 10.01.2014 15:01
Separation, children, B-permit - help... DebsWilko Family matters/health 7 23.01.2012 22:10
American C permit; Husband B, Separating with children considering Permits/visas/government 1 19.07.2011 22:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0