Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Permits/visas/government
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 30.09.2016, 20:43
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 51
Groaned at 4 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
drewboog has no particular reputation at present
Re: 'L' permit disadvantages vs 'B'?

Quote:
View Post
drewboog where do you get that 2 year restriction from? Nothing in the Foreign Nationals Act that says anything like that, just that the employer needs to meet certain conditions and the employee needs professional qualifications.
You get the non-EU L permit for one year, then it's renewed for one more year. So for the two years he is in this non-EU L permit his spouse won't be allowed to work. They don't budge on giving you a non-EU B permit any sooner.


To get permission to get a dependent non-EU L permit switched one that allows work would require you to meet the criteria that there are no other Swiss or EU people that can do the job. This is the same as they hold you to if you're coming from non-EU originally.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 30.09.2016, 22:09
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,481
Groaned at 169 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 9,614 Times in 5,494 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 'L' permit disadvantages vs 'B'?

Quote:
View Post
You get the non-EU L permit for one year, then it's renewed for one more year. So for the two years he is in this non-EU L permit his spouse won't be allowed to work. They don't budge on giving you a non-EU B permit any sooner.


To get permission to get a dependent non-EU L permit switched one that allows work would require you to meet the criteria that there are no other Swiss or EU people that can do the job. This is the same as they hold you to if you're coming from non-EU originally.
Not true as was clear in my previous posts. Providing she has professional qualifications and an employer meets the conditions set an L dependent permit holder can work.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02.10.2016, 22:25
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 25
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
tianshi has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Then how to decide who can get B or L?

Also the disadvantage that someone just replied to me on Forum is L permit can't get a mobile subscription plan!!

Quote:
View Post
Depends if non-EU or not. Could also be 'B'.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02.10.2016, 22:36
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 586
Groaned at 37 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 348 Times in 222 Posts
ivank has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
View Post
Then how to decide who can get B or L?
Clerks at Migrationsamt decide that. You don't have a say in the process.

If you're supposed to stay for less than a year (e.g. due to short-term work contract), you should get an L. If you're non-EU, you're subject to quotas, so even if you could've gotten a B, you may get an L initially due to quotas. The quotas are per canton, so you may have better chances of getting a B in some cantons than in the others.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02.10.2016, 22:41
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 51
Groaned at 4 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
drewboog has no particular reputation at present
Re: 'L' permit disadvantages vs 'B'?

Quote:
View Post
Not true as was clear in my previous posts. Providing she has professional qualifications and an employer meets the conditions set an L dependent permit holder can work.
If on a dependent non-EU L-permit you have to meet the qualifications that you are a specialist to get permission to work and there has to be no one from Switzerland or the EU that can fill the position that applied. Professional qualifications means you have to be a specialist. Same as coming here by yourself; a specialist is someone with a graduate degree, over CHF100k salary, three+ years experience.

It hurts people when you make it unclear that the professional requirements that you need to get work permission here with this type of permit are less than what it would take for their spouse who came here originally. There may be less of an income requirement because they wouldn't have to support the family, but they would still have to get the income for that job based on the national database of salaries.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02.10.2016, 22:47
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 25
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
tianshi has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Clerks to decide? It's a bit funny

Quote:
View Post
Clerks at Migrationsamt decide that. You don't have a say in the process.

If you're supposed to stay for less than a year (e.g. due to short-term work contract), you should get an L. If you're non-EU, you're subject to quotas, so even if you could've gotten a B, you may get an L initially due to quotas. The quotas are per canton, so you may have better chances of getting a B in some cantons than in the others.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02.10.2016, 22:53
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 51
Groaned at 4 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
drewboog has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
View Post
Then how to decide who can get B or L?

Also the disadvantage that someone just replied to me on Forum is L permit can't get a mobile subscription plan!!
In Zurich (non-EU), with a good job and a unlimited contract it seems very hard to get a B permit so you'll be stuck with a L permit for the first two years. It's hard to even get a non-EU L permit here, even with a PhD and being very specialized. Some people must get B-permits, but I haven't met anyone non-EU who did before. Other cantons will be much easier with giving out permits based on hearing from friends. You must live, work and get the permit in the same canton for a non-EU L permit, with a difficult process (and good reason) to get permission otherwise.

I had no problem getting a mobile phone contract (Orange, now Salt) for both my wife and I with just my job contract, and a letter saying I would get a (non-EU) L-permit in the future. It was really easy, stopped by left with a phone and did it twice. I think it's not something to worry much about.

It's much harder to get an apartment. You may have a PhD and many years of experience but your non-EU L permit looks the same as the EU L permit Italian workers that paint the houses in the summer here, and landlords don't like that at all.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank drewboog for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 02.10.2016, 22:55
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 2,319
Groaned at 59 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 3,434 Times in 1,348 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
View Post
Clerks to decide? It's a bit funny
How is that a bit funny? Who else would decide it? It's not like you can walk up in any country in this world and go like "Hi, I would like to have a permit X, thanks". Of course it's the clerks aka the local authorities who decide, in accordance with federal laws and regulations of course.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02.10.2016, 22:57
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 25
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
tianshi has no particular reputation at present
OH then I am happy to know can get a subscription plan. Salt is good?

I am so lucky to get my apartment in just one week time and 4 viewing without interview. I am so blessed.

Quote:
View Post
In Zurich (non-EU), with a good job and a unlimited contract it seems very hard to get a B permit so you'll be stuck with a L permit for the first two years. It's hard to even get a non-EU L permit here, even with a PhD and being very specialized. Some people must get B-permits, but I haven't met anyone non-EU who did before. Other cantons will be much easier with giving out permits based on hearing from friends. You must live, work and get the permit in the same canton for a non-EU L permit, with a difficult process (and good reason) to get permission otherwise.

I had no problem getting a mobile phone contract (Orange, now Salt) for both my wife and I with just my job contract, and a letter saying I would get a (non-EU) L-permit in the future. It was really easy, stopped by left with a phone and did it twice. I think it's not something to worry much about.

It's much harder to get an apartment. You may have a PhD and many years of experience but your non-EU L permit looks the same as the EU L permit Italian workers that paint the houses in the summer here, and landlords don't like that at all.
I think someone senior would be in charge of this and look details into each case. At least an officer, well.

Quote:
View Post
How is that a bit funny? Who else would decide it? It's not like you can walk up in any country in this world and go like "Hi, I would like to have a permit X, thanks". Of course it's the clerks aka the local authorities who decide, in accordance with federal laws and regulations of course.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 03.10.2016 at 22:29. Reason: merging consecutive replies
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02.10.2016, 23:06
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 51
Groaned at 4 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
drewboog has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
View Post
How is that a bit funny? Who else would decide it? It's not like you can walk up in any country in this world and go like "Hi, I would like to have a permit X, thanks". Of course it's the clerks aka the local authorities who decide, in accordance with federal laws and regulations of course.
The migration office sends requests to the AWA office to decide on work permission. This is both for people coming from non-EU the first time and for dependent non-EU permit permissions (everyone I guess, but if you're EU and get a job you get permission.) The AWA office has some book with every possibility written out and how they should decide on it. The clerks maybe make a small judgement call, but mostly it's decided by what this book says. The book is some mix of canton law and federal law, and doesn't have much flexibility, even if federal law seems to say otherwise. This is what the lawyers told me I worked with on this. The Swiss way is organized and this is how they do it.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank drewboog for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 02.10.2016, 23:31
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,481
Groaned at 169 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 9,614 Times in 5,494 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 'L' permit disadvantages vs 'B'?

Quote:
View Post
If on a dependent non-EU L-permit you have to meet the qualifications that you are a specialist to get permission to work and there has to be no one from Switzerland or the EU that can fill the position that applied. Professional qualifications means you have to be a specialist. Same as coming here by yourself; a specialist is someone with a graduate degree, over CHF100k salary, three+ years experience.

It hurts people when you make it unclear that the professional requirements that you need to get work permission here with this type of permit are less than what it would take for their spouse who came here originally. There may be less of an income requirement because they wouldn't have to support the family, but they would still have to get the income for that job based on the national database of salaries.
In that case, no L dependent holders would be working here. As they are already resident here, the requirement to prioritise Swiss/EU goes out the window as far as I know even though they need authorisation. Professional qualifications means a university degree and yes probably some years' of experience. But I doubt the need for the salary to be over CHF100k. Many main L permit holders don't make that much.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02.10.2016, 23:45
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 51
Groaned at 4 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
drewboog has no particular reputation at present
Re: 'L' permit disadvantages vs 'B'?

Quote:
View Post
In that case, no L dependent holders would be working here. As they are already resident here, the requirement to prioritise Swiss/EU goes out the window as far as I know even though they need authorisation. Professional qualifications means a university degree and yes probably some years' of experience. But I doubt the need for the salary to be over CHF100k. Many main L permit holders don't make that much.
Absolutely not true. They require you're specialized and no qualified Swiss/EU people are available for the position. You have to be specialized, which is defined in the law. My wife has a university degree, multiple companies offered her a job that very much wanted to hire her above all other applicants, AWA rejected permission for her to work multiple times because these companies would have 20+ resumes, some with the same degree/years of experience she has. I said that the salary requirement may not be an issue, because you don't have to support a family.

We tried every work around, we got lawyers because it was so clearly written she could work in the law (and they agreed.) The AWA said there is canton law and we do what we want. It came to the end of the line, except to wait for two years of waiting around for the non-EU L permit to get turned into a B permit.

I am speaking from experience, and you're speaking from copying and pasting laws and giving a lot of advice on English Forums.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank drewboog for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 02.10.2016, 23:48
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 2,319
Groaned at 59 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 3,434 Times in 1,348 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
a specialist is someone with a graduate degree, over CHF100k salary, three+ years experience.
A Masters degree - normally yes. Salary - not really an official rule. 3+ years of experience - that hardly makes a specialist. A specialist is someone who, you guessed it, works in a specialized field/niche of sorts, though even there 3 years of experience will often not cut it.


Quote:
View Post
I think someone senior would be in charge of this and look details into each case. At least an officer, well.
Do you realize how many cases come in every year? We're not talking 10 per year per canton. Also, they ARE officers. And the rules on who gets a permit and who doesn't and which one are really quite clear in 90% of all cases, so not everything needs to be double-checked or decided by "someone senior"...

Quote:
View Post
Absolutely not true. (...)

We tried every work around, we got lawyers because it was so clearly written she could work in the law (and they agreed.) The AWA said there is canton law and we do what we want. It came to the end of the line, except to wait for two years of waiting around for the non-EU L permit to get turned into a B permit.

I am speaking from experience, and you're speaking from copying and pasting laws and giving a lot of advice on English Forums.
Yeah I think Medea knows a thing or two about all this, whereas your comments are based on one individual incident.

Also, just to be very clear on this: there is no right for your wife to work here. There is no law that would GUARANTEE her a permit. No, not even if she ticks all theoretical boxes. She can apply, sure, but EVERY application can be denied. NO ONE has a general, unconditional right to work here other than the Swiss. Same is true for literally every other country in the world.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 03.10.2016, 00:24
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 51
Groaned at 4 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
drewboog has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
View Post
Also, just to be very clear on this: there is no right for your wife to work here. There is no law that would GUARANTEE her a permit. No, not even if she ticks all theoretical boxes. She can apply, sure, but EVERY application can be denied. NO ONE has a general, unconditional right to work here other than the Swiss. Same is true for literally every other country in the world.
We got rejected by the AWA initially after she got job offers here as I described before.

Then she went to school with a mandatory internship requirement. In the Swiss law says mandatory school internships are allowed permission when going to a Swiss school. This is what is clearly written in the law. Zurich invoked a dependent non-EU L permit is never allowed to do this because of canton law after she got the internship offer. The law says she should be able to do this, the boxes she checked for this was what was outlined by federal Swiss law.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03.10.2016, 08:22
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,481
Groaned at 169 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 9,614 Times in 5,494 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 'L' permit disadvantages vs 'B'?

I doubt I know anywhere as much as you do Samaire13. You actually work in the hiring area iirc while yes I only know what I've read in the Foreign Nationals Act and here on the forum.

And yes drewboog, cantons do make their own interpretations of the federal law as we all know. But as Samaire13 says you have your individual experience which was a bad one, but that doesn't mean the OP's wife will experience the same. It's good to have examples like yours here on the forum because it's a recent experience that others can judge their own against. So OP please note that it may be difficult if not impossible for your wife to be able to work here while you're on an L permit.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03.10.2016, 09:12
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 2,319
Groaned at 59 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 3,434 Times in 1,348 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
View Post
We got rejected by the AWA initially after she got job offers here as I described before.

Then she went to school with a mandatory internship requirement. In the Swiss law says mandatory school internships are allowed permission when going to a Swiss school. This is what is clearly written in the law. Zurich invoked a dependent non-EU L permit is never allowed to do this because of canton law after she got the internship offer. The law says she should be able to do this, the boxes she checked for this was what was outlined by federal Swiss law.
Again, drewboog, you really don't understand your fundamental error. It is not written "in the law" that every person who gets a job or an internship here that is presumably mandatory for their studies automatically gets a work permit! "The law" says what minimum conditions you need to meet to be even able to apply and to be considered for a work permit. Again, no one has, by default, an unconditional right to work here other than the Swiss (and C-permit holders) and that's because they are nationals.

Also, if you tried first via the job route and then later via internship, no wonder it was denied. The latter is usually easy to get, but how stupid do you think authorities are? They too knew you were just trying to circumvent a prior decision.

Quote:
I doubt I know anywhere as much as you do Samaire13. You actually work in the hiring area iirc while yes I only know what I've read in the Foreign Nationals Act and here on the forum.
Used to So sometimes a bit careful as I've been away from it for a while... Thanks though
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03.10.2016, 09:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 586
Groaned at 37 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 348 Times in 222 Posts
ivank has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
View Post
Again, no one has, by default, an unconditional right to work here other than the Swiss (and C-permit holders) and that's because they are nationals.
Not true, EU(-27) workers have this as a right too thanks to Freizügigkeitsabkommen. And their coimmigrating family members too, even if non-EU.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03.10.2016, 10:13
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 2,319
Groaned at 59 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 3,434 Times in 1,348 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it B or L residence permit?

Quote:
View Post
Not true, EU(-27) workers have this as a right too thanks to Freizügigkeitsabkommen. And their coimmigrating family members too, even if non-EU.
You are right.

I should have written "to reside and work" as for EU the two are sort of intertwined to a certain extent
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
B(EU) to C permit automatic, disadvantages? tp_sale Permits/visas/government 21 03.10.2014 17:01
work permit vs residency permit help -fiancee of US citizen Huba Permits/visas/government 24 12.04.2012 12:01
Switzerland Vs UK ( Tier 1 General permit Vs Restricted B permit) indianWoman Permits/visas/government 9 17.07.2011 16:56
Switzerland Vs UK ( Tier 1 General permit Vs Restricted B permit) indianWoman Leaving Switzerland 7 10.10.2010 00:06
Intent to Marry Permit vs. Freelance Permit?? orakj Permits/visas/government 22 06.06.2008 09:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0