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Old 21.10.2016, 17:36
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New Legislation and C-Permit

http://lenews.ch/2016/09/22/tough-ne...gh-parliament/

Has anybody had any clarity from the migrationsamt on this? I am on 2nd B-Permit, my german is ok, am uk, dont have Language Certs but have booked exam for 2017 and was going to get C-Permit then. However, the above link states that:

"Well integrated foreigners will be able to get C permits after 10 years. Parliament rejected the possibility of this being automatic. Justice minister Simonetta Sommaruga said that this is consistent with the new rules on obtaining Swiss citizenship."

So am guessing, and this all it is, that someone in my situation will only be able to be on a C permit after 10years on a B. I have searched and asked a number of people, including the Zurich Migrationsamt but nobody can give me a definitive answer whether the above is truly the case. Am keen as hell to get C-Permit and will try to get Language certs this year if 2016 is last year one can apply with just a B and less than 10 years for a C.

Any help massively appreciated



Cheers
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Old 21.10.2016, 19:16
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

"Anyone not respecting the criteria set out in the text, could risk losing their B permit, or having their C permit downgraded to a B permit, if they show no intention of integrating."

Does this mean i have to demonstrate 'integration' each year?
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Old 21.10.2016, 21:02
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

Well, from the press release it sounds as if they've agreed this, but debate is still ongoing so it's not law yet. Am I correct?
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Old 22.10.2016, 02:45
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

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Well, from the press release it sounds as if they've agreed this, but debate is still ongoing so it's not law yet. Am I correct?
Hope so.

I had heard things about a new referendum to overturn the Feb '14 referendum - not true i guess
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Old 22.10.2016, 08:55
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

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Well, from the press release it sounds as if they've agreed this, but debate is still ongoing so it's not law yet. Am I correct?
Absolutely right. Given the speed with which these things happen in Switzerland it's unlikely to come into effect before 2018 at the earliest so the OP should be fine.
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Old 22.10.2016, 12:35
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

Can't really see what they hope to achieve by this. Is it to encourage more foreigners to become Swiss citizens, even though most Swiss born don't consider them so because they're naturalised? Or is it to drive out foreigners because they can't/won't tick certain Swiss boxes?

We don't meet the intergration criteria, though we can probably do the language and history bits if we try. But as for being members of clubs, having Swiss friends, well no we don't. We're not the sort of people to join clubs anyway and there's nothing locally we're interested in joining. Swiss friends, well I hope I have some here on the forum, but other than that no as I don't go out much at all. Hubby knows some Swiss at his workplace, but it's an international company and they have more foreigners than natives employed there.

Would I fee more integrated if I ticked all those boxes? I'm not sure. Walking around Retro Technica at the Forum in Fribourg this morning, most of the voices I heard were speaking German so integration wouldn't help me in that respect at all, I still wouldn't understand what was being said.

My life wouldn't be much different in the UK. Yes, I'd understand what people are saying, but as for friends, clubs, etc, it would probably be the same. It's just the way I am and I'm happy. Is that so very wrong?
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Old 22.10.2016, 13:02
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

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Yes, I'd understand what people are saying, but as for friends, clubs, etc, it would probably be the same. It's just the way I am and I'm happy. Is that so very wrong?
My husband is Swiss and he is not a member of any clubs.... does this make him not integrated...

I have just applied for Swiss citizenship, apart from my language level, there is not much difference between how me and my husband go about life in Switzerland, so it will be interesting to see what they say
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Old 22.10.2016, 13:27
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

Well, the Swiss have thrown in the towel as far as negotiating, the non free movement of EU labour into Switzerland, with the EU block.
So they will probably look for other ways to restrict/control this free move of EU labour.
With Swiss citizenship they keep moving the goalposts.
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Old 22.10.2016, 14:56
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

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I have just applied for Swiss citizenship, apart from my language level, there is not much difference between how me and my husband go about life in Switzerland, so it will be interesting to see what they say
Well if memory serves, you apply at the federal level, the canton and the heimatort of your husband gets informed the they will have a new citizen. There is not much the community where you live can do about it.
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Old 24.10.2016, 10:35
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

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http://lenews.ch/2016/09/22/tough-ne...gh-parliament/


"Well integrated foreigners will be able to get C permits after 10 years. Parliament rejected the possibility of this being automatic. Justice minister Simonetta Sommaruga said that this is consistent with the new rules on obtaining Swiss citizenship."



Cheers
Does this mean there is no more VINTA law which allows to obtain C permits before 10 years when one can prove successfull integration?
It also looks like some EU nationalities which automatically get a C permit after 5 years will not be entitled to it anymore. i even dont know if they still can get it after 5 years or wait for 10 years.


cheers
happycreature
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Old 24.10.2016, 11:29
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

I suspect that is just a law that has made it through the lower house.... Can someone provide a link to the actual law that has been voted in (or explain if it is a bill that has made it past one stage in Swiss Parliament only to encounter more voting steps before becoming law)?

I ask as its less useful to speculate, when we could get very useful info by going to the actual facts of the matter, which aren't fully explained or clear from the article.

It is helpful that the article does provide links to the FR and DE versions of the press release, even in that the full details aren't crystal clear.

What I could glean in reading the French version is:
  • well integrated people can get C after 10 years, but cantons can still allow the early C after 5 if well integrated
  • a wait of 3 years to get your new C permit to prove integration (no detail on that)
  • duration of validity of a b permit will depend on how integrated you are considered (but no detail provided)
  • can lose a B if not behaving inline with Swiss values and integration ( the usual ones listed elsewhere - "economic participation' by working or studying, know a national language, respect public order constitutional principles such as gender equality)
  • could get C bumped back to B (but that is a contradiction if have shown integration to get it)
  • Getting a C is not a right, so it cant be automatically acquired (to make it in line with Swiss citizenship)
  • if you are long term social security recipient, could lose permit, even if have lived here more than 15 years (not no detail provided on that either)
  • Preachers and teachers of foreign cultures and languages must show they have proficiency in the language of the canton they work in (oddly, its not a national language, and seems directly aimed at tightening requirements on foreign religions, so some parties must have issue with something in that general sphere, i am sure you can read between the lines)

... but I was surprised at the oddly informal/journalistic tone the press release had, coming direct from a parliament....

DE version of press release https://www.parlament.ch/de/services...41_bsd088.aspx

FR version of press release https://www.parlament.ch/fr/services...41_bsf048.aspx
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Old 24.10.2016, 13:37
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

As far as the C getting bumped back to B, that will affect people like me who got it automatically after 5 years I'm assuming. If I'm not integrated enough then I'll lose my C permit.

For the first two points, getting a C after 10 years and then having to wait 3 years to prove your integration - doesn't that contradict with the new citizenship law that says you can apply after 10 years if you get a C permit? Surely if you have to prove your integration you should have to wait another 3 years before you could apply for citizenship?

Sounds like B/C permit may also not be renewable every 5 years, but every year to me if you have to wait to confirm a C, and the B depends on how integrated you are to start with.
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Old 24.10.2016, 14:37
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

Thanks everyone. Only thing certain is uncertainty...which sort of makes me believe none of this has been finalised - this would also make sense given the Migrationsamt cannot seem to give me a clear answer or even acknowledge there are new rules. Am sure there would be far more uproar if it had actually become law. Who wants to live somewhere if you can be downgraded from C to B?


I'll apply for a C next year I think and let everyone know how it goes. Cheers
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Old 24.10.2016, 14:41
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

Here is the detailed transcript of the Nationalrat debate which is summarised in the press release linked earlier in this thread: https://www.parlament.ch/de/ratsbetr...ubjectId=37923

I cannot seem to find the exact text they have agreed on though.

Also, https://www.parlament.ch/de/ratsbetr...airId=20130030 seems to track the progress of this act, but it only has the initial 2013 draft linked.
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Old 24.10.2016, 14:47
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

My B permit is due for renewal the end of November 2016, I've been here 7years now & have an 11yr old at the local school. I also am now married to a Swiss. I will let you know how I get on. My local community advised me to wait for 3 more years before applying for a C permit or wait for 5 more years if I wanted to apply for citizenship.. I'm not a member of any clubs but I do have several Swiss friends but none of them are local as the area is semi rural & vast majority of the locals are very narrow minded. I think in general these new ideas are more to do with dealing with certain groups from Eastern Europe & those that write & read from right to left.
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Old 01.12.2016, 16:25
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Integration, might apply also to 'C' permit holders

New thoughts within the government point to making all foreigners integrate well, 'C' permit holders could be reduced to 'B' permit status.

Note: this is NOT in Swiss law, but better integration is being debated by Parliament.

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/aus...id5837949.html

With the new rules, the Federal Council and the Parliament want to promote integration. In the future, a residence permit (C-ID) will only be given to those who are well integrated. As an integrated, those who respect public security and order, respect the values ​​of the Federal Constitution, participate in economic life or train themselves and have the necessary language competencies.

Anyone who has a residence permit can also lose it. This is already possible today, for example in the event of violations of public security and order, or in the case of a permanent receipt of social assistance - even if a person has already been granted a C-ID for more than 15 years.

Newly, the authorities will now also be able to revoke the C-identification card or to reduce it to a B-card if a foreigner or a foreigner is not willing to integrate. The Council of States ratified the provision of the National Council by 27 votes to 14. The council was opposed in vain. The provision was unnecessary, Hans Stöckli (SP / BE). The obstacles to the approval of the settlement would be increased. Who is not fully integrated, does not receive a C-ID.

Stefan Engler (CVP / GR). The provision would make sense if someone had come to a residence permit and then turned out to be unconstitutional. It was intended for those who "sabotaged the integration without becoming criminal."

Justice Minister Simonetta Sommaruga noted that the provision was not a catastrophe, but it looked as if it were a hard tool for dealing with the unwillingness of integration. The resignation to the residence permit is complicated, since the concerned persons could complain. Besides that does not bring much. Sommaruga asked what he was going to do if the person had only a residence permit and still did not want to. It assumes that the cantons would hardly apply the provision. Integration agreements are the better instrument.

The integration of refugees, asylum seekers and asylum seekers is also to be promoted through the work. At the same time, this should help to make a better use of the domestic labor force potential. The Federal Council had supplemented the submission after the yes to the mass immigration initiative.

The Council of States now approved the additional provisions as a second council. These include incentives for asylum seekers and employers. On the one hand, the special tax is abolished on the wages of asylum seekers and temporarily accepted. On the other hand, employers employing refugees or temporarily admitted persons do not have to go through an elaborate authorization procedure. The license obligation is replaced by a notification requirement. The employer does not want to take the employer into the duty in the case of integration. According to the National Council, the Council of States has also deleted a provision to support foreign workers in taking part in promotional offers.

It is still controversial now which persons are permitted to work at all. The Federal Council wants to enable refugees, asylum seekers and temporarily admitted persons to pursue an employment activity throughout Switzerland. The National Council, on the other hand, intends to prohibit a part of the provisional persons who have been temporarily admitted, namely, those who are temporarily admitted because they can not be rejected for reasons of performance. According to his own will, only those for whom the expulsion is unacceptable for reasons of international law or unacceptable because of a danger in the country of origin.
The Council of States rejected this restriction by 32 votes to 5. Stefan Engler (CVP / GR) stated on behalf of the Commission that the persons concerned were not to blame for the fact that repatriation was not possible. Otherwise they would not receive a provisional admission.

Sommaruga noted that it was difficult to understand why the National Council would make an exception for these persons. In addition, it would be a shot in his own knee. To be an employer means not to receive social assistance.

The law now goes back to the National Council.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 01.12.2016 at 17:37. Reason: added some returns to make reading a bit easier :)
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Old 01.12.2016, 20:29
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Re: Integration, might apply also to 'C' permit holders

Perhaps should be merged into this thread.

http://www.englishforum.ch/permits-v...-c-permit.html
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Old 01.12.2016, 21:13
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Re: Integration, might apply also to 'C' permit holders

It has been brought about partly because Switzerland does not want any unregulated emigration from the EU,
but they must change their minds before February or face more EU punishment.

Massen-Einwanderungs-Initiative
MEI and the 2017 EU Timetable

Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
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Old Yesterday, 16:42
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Re: Integration, might apply also to 'C' permit holders

I have to say that this latest salvo worries me greatly.

I hope if this comes to pass that 'integration' is concretely defined at the federal level, applicable to all, enforced consistently across Switzerland. Else we will see the same thing happen as with naturalization, where subjective interpretation from village to village means very different approaches to the process, very different hurdles to overcome - and very different outcomes.
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Old Yesterday, 17:05
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Re: New Legislation and C-Permit

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My husband is Swiss and he is not a member of any clubs.... does this make him not integrated...

I have just applied for Swiss citizenship, apart from my language level, there is not much difference between how me and my husband go about life in Switzerland, so it will be interesting to see what they say
sorry but it is his "choice" as a Swiss and your "fault" as a foreigner.
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