I'm not getting involved in the "Dog bites TV Presenter" thread but I thought I'd start a thread for those of you have not been brought up with dogs, don't own them or know how to deal with them but who are genuinely interested in learning about what makes dogs tick, how they communicate and how humans, and little humans in particular, can learn to communicate with them.

If you're of the opinion that as you have no interest in dogs you should not have to learn about them, you don't need to tell me, this thread is not for you.... just move along.

Dogs are here, they are a fact of daily life as are cars, buses, trams and trains. You teach your children how to avoid the potential danger of vehicles driven by a very small number of bad drivers, why not teach them how to avoid the potential danger of a very small number of badly trained dogs......

I know there was a program here (maybe it still exists) where owners of big dogs would take them into schools to teach kids about canine communication, my wife was going to take part with one of ours but we just had too much on our plate at the time.

First off, we have 2 Rottweilers, Kyra the girl is a pure bred from a breeder near Rottweil in Germany, Dylan is a part Rotti from a rescue centre here in CH and we have just adopted a 2 legged mutt, probably part fox, from Russia. As a kid our family had a few dogs including a Golden Lab who did have behavioural problems against other dogs, but not humans. I have never in my life been bitten by a dog (apart from some nips which are part of the training of Kyra when she was a little pup.... you train a dog to never bite humans by letting them nip you as a pup during play fighting, you squeal loudly to let them know that their play has gone too far and they back off and learn that using teeth on humans is just not acceptable) yet I know of many people who rarely come into contact with dogs who have been bitten and nipped many times.

So why is this?

My advice here is only from my experience and I'm sure many other dog owners and lovers will come in with their own advice, but I'll start with a few simple rules.

Rule 1. When approaching a dog of any type for the first time in the street, countryside or friends house, or when it approaches you... IGNORE it - even if you know it is a friendly dog. Don't make eye contact or even look towards it, keeps your hands by your side and if it tries to come to your front, turn around. If it does try to jump up at you top say hello or to play (and it really shouldn't do this) stick your knee out to push it away.... do not use your hands or feet. You are basically telling the dog, in its own "language" that you are not interested in it, not scared of it and you are way above it in the family "pecking order".

Our Rottis are very sociable and friendly and love to make new human friends and do get over excited when new people come to the farm, but I always tell guests to do the above and within 10 - 20 seconds, the dogs will calm down go away to their beds. After a little while you can then go to introduce yourself to the dog on your terms. You are already the boss and will remain so for ever.

Rule 2. Never, ever wave your hands up in the air and scream when a dog comes near you. You are actually inviting the dog to play - this looks like great fun it is thinking... and he will do this by jumping up at you. And dogs play with each other also using their teeth, and they may do so with you too.... as you are not yet its boss.

Rule 3. Dogs are animals, they are not humans or Teddy Bears. Never humanise a dog by cooing at it or putting your face in its face. Dogs in the wild live in strictly controlled packs and in this larger pack of humans and pet dogs, humans must always be the pack leaders. Often the best trained and safest dogs are the ones that look like they are being cruelly treated by their owners - they are not. The owner is just constantly reinforcing to the dog that he is the pack leader. The dog knows where he stands and is a happier and more stable dog because of it.

I don't have time right now to go further but I will be back in a few days with some more tips and I am sure some of the other dog owners here will come in with their own tips and rules...

Finally, I repeat... do not use MY thread to argue about why you need to learn how to get along with dogs. Start your own thread for that. This is purely for those who would like to learn from the many caring and responsible dog owners on this forum.

So, here's our 2 Rottis. To the untrained eye they may look like aggresive killer dogs. To me they look happy, friendly and lower members of our family pack.

Shame that Rottis are banned in Geneva

Thank you very much, these tips are very helpful to me as a non-dog owner, and I am sure they will be of much help to others as well. Many things I didn't know or hadn't thought about - I'll go to bed less stupid tonight! Cheers

This website is about the PAM association:

http://www.pam-ge-association.ch/#

They are very active in the French speaking cantons. They edit a few brochures (you can download them from the site) to teach kids how to behave with a dog, or even for adults who fear dogs.

They also go to schools to interact directly with the kids, and show them how to act with a foreign dog: do the leek (arms down, not moving) if a dog comes sniff, do the stone (curving into a ball) if you feel threatened, etc.

We read the brochure a lot with my then-toddler when we got our Brownie.

My daughter is crazy about dogs and i'm constantly stopping her from chasing them down. I'm trying to teach her not to run up to them and get so excited since they think she wants to play.

One thing I don't do is let my kids eat in open areas where people walk dogs - especially in the stroller.

I was bitten when I was around 3 years old, eating something at a birthday party and a German Sheppard jumped up and tried to grab the food and got my face too. The dog didn't mean it and my family always had the same breed of dog, so we lied when we went to the hospital to get it stitched, otherwise the poor dog would have probably been put down. I love dogs, but just a little wary after my experience.

good post grumpy!

Here are some that I can think of:

- If you are out walking, and you see a dog approaching in a distance, dont walk head on towards the dog. Instead, imagine a curve on the ground like the letter C and approach along that curve. Once you are close to the dog, turn to your side rather than facing the dog head-on.

The dog owner should have re-called the dog back to their side in the ideal world.

- If the dog does approach you besides not giving it any touch, talk or eye contact is to let it sniff you. Thats how dogs greet each other. They are ruled by their NOSE, EYES, then EARS.

After sniffing you and looking away for a couple of times and back to sniffing, this is the dog giving the signal that its alright with you.

- When it shows that its comfortable around you, ask the owner if its alright for you to pet it. If yes, scratch it under its chin and try not to look at the fella right in the eye. Not the top of its head. Insecure dogs dont like it.

- Avoid sudden movements. Its more difficult for children to accomplish this than adults, which unfortunately triggers the prey instinct in dogs.

Great thread topic

Today I was walking home and a strange dog (with his nose covered in snow and a very waggly tail) approached me, this was before I read this thread, and I just let him come to me and I had my hands down at my side and he gave me a few sniffs and off he went of his adventure.

I know we have taught my neice and nephew when they are out and about if they see a dog and it has an owner they have to approach the owner first to see if they can pat the dog..and only with an adult around.

And great picture of your babies, they look like they can get up to some serious mischief

What an excellent, excellent thread. We live in the countryside and go on frequent walks and I am always surprised by how many dog owners are happy for their dog to come bounding up to us, jumping and excitedly barking. I have never had a dog and find it hard to know what to do when this happens (it happens just about every time we go out on a walk .. which is most days). So I will try to apply your advice.

Incidently, is it good owner behaviour when your animal is off the lead to let it bound up to other people? My instinct tells me is it not, but then I am not used to animals so perhaps I am too oversensitive?

Sometimes, I must say, we meet really great dog owners - even one recently who held their dog quietly and invited my young son over to pat him, showing him how to do it and explaining why he (my son) shouldn't get excited around dogs. How great. We now meet this lady often on our walks and are always happy to greet her two dogs too.

My dog's trustworthy (in my eyes) but I always recall him back to me when he is off lead to walk alongside me when I see people approaching. Some owners dont, but I sometimes get a grateful smile so I guess its good etiquette to.

Excellent indeed. But at the end of the day, it is the dog owner's responsibility to accept that some people do not know how to behave with dogs, that some children, especially those with autism or other problem, or from cultures where dogs are rare or live in wild packs, etc, have no idea that their excitement or fear can make things worse and trigger an attack - and therefore to teach and train their dog, and to control the situation at all times.

Dog owners should NOT let dogs bound up to people or children uncontrolled- even if they are very good natured dogs generally.

PS Summerterrain, posts crossed.

Well I always reason that if the owner is happy for their dog to come bounding up to greet us, then they must be fairly happy that their dog is the friendly type, but as a non dog owner I find it hard not sometimes to be alarmed .. particularly the ones who run really fast at you when they see you at the other end of the path then at the last minute veer away and round you.

I'm not scared of dogs but aware that I am not very comfortable around certain dog behaviours .. through lack of experience more than anything .. rather like a 16 year old would be if given a 1 month old baby and told to change its nappy! But I do like dogs and do want to pass this on to my children rather than, as I currently do, modelling uncertainty and hesitancy.

This is a great thread and always trying to educate my children as we dont own any dogs.

It is hard as a lot of people with dogs here let them just wander over to my eldest who for whatever reason he hasnt had a bad experience does not like dogs big or small.. he is frightened even of my sister chihuahua's. I have explained to him about jumping around and making noises excites the dogs and if he is just quiet and walks past then they will ignore him too!

Harder even with my 2 yo as he is the opposite and wants to run up to them but he doesnt touch now and i always ask first if its ok and get the owner to hold the dog too.

Odile, I agree with everything you've said, except that I am not summerterrain

Excellent thread

Grumpygrapefruit has said so many important things that at the moment I can just think of one thing to add: if you're scared of dogs and/or dislike them, remember that you're a role model for your kids. If you are scared your kids probably will feel the same way and I am sure that people who are scared get involved in unpleasant dog incidents more often. You might try getting into contact with a responsible looking dog owner so your kid can make some positive experiences with dogs and also learn the correct behaviour.

As a dog owner I firmly believe that it is my responsibility to be in control of my dog and not to have him run to strangers, bounce up to them and so on. I am very well aware that not every body is a dog lover. I even have a favorite jogger who always thanks me friendlily when I call my dog to my side to lie down when he approaches

I thought that was me and then I saw you were in Thurgau!

Apologies summerrain.

Hmmmm, prob not.

I am sometimes guilty of this. Partly a combination of youth on his part, me not enforcing strongly enough and partly the dog or ball or whatever this person/people might have has distracted and caught his attention enough that he ignores my calls. Generally I can keep his attention with a squeaky ball.

Also partly because I know he hasn't a bad bone in his body I don't worry too much. He wants to play.

That and he is tiny.

But when a golden retriever came bounding over and nearly bit my hand off and attacked my dog, it was a bit frightening to me, and I have never been afraid of any dogs. So, I guess breeds don't matter!

I am (was?) a bad dog owner somewhat in this respect, although my dog was never off lead (very common in the US for there to be "leash laws" requiring dog to be leashed at all times), I did allow to be jumpy. I liked her to greet me this way and always turned so she was standing with her hind legs on my arm, within the cradle of my arms kinda, me rubbing her chest with the other hand. This was always a problem for my father though as he somehow always got scratched bloody by her doing this. I'd tell her "down", he'd tell her "down", she'd look at us confused because she wasn't used to getting direction from anyone besides me. Completely my fault.


Contrary to this, when I've watched dogs for friends here though, I always (of course) have dog on lead because it's not my dog, I'd rather know for sure I CAN control the dog rather than rely on "hopefully" being able to recall an off-leash dog. When we're walking and encounter someone, I shorten the leash so the dog is right with me and as the person comes close, I have the dog sit at my foot. I never let dog approach person, always let the person decide if contact is wanted, and then they come to me and the dog, still with short leash.

So far, people can recognize the effort of this and appreciate that the dog is receiving (and listening to) instruction - not every dog I've watched has been good at this already, but within a sort time it's usually pretty smooth.

What a wonderful thread. I've owned dogs but didn't know about the OP's approach for meeting a strange dog. Very helpful.

I see heaps of comments about dogs off a lead and jumping up. Please, please, please do not have your large dog off a lead if you are not 100% certain it will not jump up/on someone. I am specifying large not because of an assumed aggressiveness. It's just that due to their size, they can really knock over someone. I've unfortunately had this happen and I can say that had I been pregnant as I am now, it could have ended very tragically. In my case, it didn't appear to be friendly either and came at me seemingly out of nowhere.

But still, on that note let me thank all you current dog owners with friendly, sweet dogs who brighten my day and my husband's day when we go for our daily walk. Seriously, I swoon at some of these adorable darlings. There is this one lady in a motorized wheelchair and her wee doggie runs ahead. We stopped once to pet him and she smiled at us, then joked that we greeted the dog before her. Oops! ;p

Some dogs don't get opportunities for proper training off leash. Aside from not running up to strangers to say hello who may not welcome the dog, or accidentally knocking over someone (elderly, pregnant, child, etc)....

...I see here so many reasons for fenced dog parks to be established in Switzerland!!!!

Not only will this let dogs of all sizes run off leash, but it will allow dogs to socialize with each other and with people who are assuredly dog friendly.

Such a pitty the Swiss won't give green space for this purpose.