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Old 14.06.2016, 13:31
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Bloody bloody BSL :(

The tale of Diggy:

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/gener...oto-goes-viral

and the petition:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb...4954&cid=fb_na
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Old 14.06.2016, 14:00
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

I really do understand this young man.. He loves his pet and it may as well be that this particular pet will never bite or kill a person or another pet.
However, the ban is in place for a reason. The statistics are strongly in favor of such bans and pictures of defenseless victims (which I will spear the forum members.. they can google) speak for themselves.

When I lived in the US I have witnessed too many pitbull attacks on little dogs, cats, children and adults. It is especially heartbreaking for kids, when they lose parts of their faces and are disfigured for life. Not much easier to hold a kitten that has been torn to pieces by a pit. These are of course only my own experiences.

If we look at statistics, last year pit bulls contributed to 82% of people's deaths. Pit bulls make up about 6.6% of the total U.S. dog population. (http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-sta...ities-2015.php)

As much as I love animals, when it comes to some breeds, either the owners need to put in measures to ensure everyone's safety, or they need to be banned.And in my experience, few owners are well equipped to handle pits.
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Old 14.06.2016, 14:21
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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I really do understand this young man.. He loves his pet and it may as well be that this particular pet will never bite or kill a person or another pet.
However, the ban is in place for a reason. The statistics are strongly in favor of such bans and pictures of defenseless victims (which I will spear the forum members.. they can google) speak for themselves.

When I lived in the US I have witnessed too many pitbull attacks on little dogs, cats, children and adults. It is especially heartbreaking for kids, when they lose parts of their faces and are disfigured for life. Not much easier to hold a kitten that has been torn to pieces by a pit. These are of course only my own experiences.

If we look at statistics, last year pit bulls contributed to 82% of people's deaths. Pit bulls make up about 6.6% of the total U.S. dog population. (http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-sta...ities-2015.php)

As much as I love animals, when it comes to some breeds, either the owners need to put in measures to ensure everyone's safety, or they need to be banned.And in my experience, few owners are well equipped to handle pits.
Ditto on this, and I have no idea why people expect things should to be changed because of occasional emotional exceptions to the rule.

Pit bulls and related holding/fighting breeds should stay banned, they are simply too strong, powerful and sometimes aggressive to risk human lives if/when they do flip out and the inherent nature and physics of the way they bite so strongly and deeply while grinding their teeth into their molars and shaking means that the results on humans, especially children, are as we know, deadly.

Fluffy stories aside, they are banned for a good reason.
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Old 14.06.2016, 14:28
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

I'm struggling to see how Basel Airport are involved in any of this...
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Old 15.06.2016, 02:22
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

I’ve made my opinion of BSL clear in many posts. BSL is bad law based on bad science, and ultimately ineffective in promoting public safety. But rather than pontificating further, I’ll let a few experts, whose voices carry far more weight than mine, state the case:

Statement by the American Veterinary Medical Association:
https://www.avma.org/public/Pages/Wh...he-Answer.aspx

Policy statement, and expanded article, from the ASPCA
http://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty/...ic-legislation
http://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-...ic-legislation

American Bar Association:
http://www.americanbar.org/content/d...thcheckdam.pdf

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior:
http://avsabonline.org/uploads/posit...d-_8-18-14.pdf

—-

But I can’t resist pontificating about one thing:

Owner responsibility. Yes, it really is the other end of the leash. Irresponsible owner tarnishes us all - and irresponsible ownership leads to the poorly conceived knee-jerk response that is BSL.

People, please start taking your responsibilities seriously. Learn the rules - federal, canton, and community - and for doG’s sake, follow them. Take the mandatory classes, and beyond. Show respect and empathy for others who share the same public space. Be polite. Be aware.

If you love your dog, step up your game as an owner.
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Old 15.06.2016, 08:29
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

Just last week, a woman got killed in her own backyard by the neighbor's pit bull in Montreal. The only way the rescues could get to the victim was by shooting the dog.

The problem is not the dog but the owner. You can control the dog as much as you want, if the owner is an irresponsible clueless one, the dog isn't going to be controlled and that's when trouble start.

And it's because of those irresponsible clueless owners those restrictive laws and bans are in place.

You can't predict the actions/reactions of any dogs in any situations. And you can't trust all pit bull owners to be responsible ones.

Better to ban than being sorry
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Old 15.06.2016, 08:34
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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Just last week, a woman got killed in her own backyard by the neighbor's pit bull in Montreal. The only way the rescues could get to the victim was by shooting the dog.

The problem is not the dog but the owner. You can control the dog as much as you want, if the owner is an irresponsible clueless one, the dog isn't going to be controlled and that's when trouble start.

And it's because of those irresponsible clueless owners those restrictive laws and bans are in place.

You can't predict the actions/reactions of any dogs in any situations. And you can't trust all pit bull owners to be responsible ones.

Better to ban than being sorry
the dog is of course part of the problem too. it wouldn't have happened with a Yorkshire terrier.
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Old 15.06.2016, 08:53
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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the dog is of course part of the problem too. it wouldn't have happened with a Yorkshire terrier.
It's not the dogs fault if his jaw is so strong that only a bullet or 3 will have it open. It is not the dog's fault for its breed. It's the human who bred them into "land sharks".

A Yorkshire won't do this damage because he doesn't have the same jaw.

But it's still not the dogs fault to be a dog.

Last edited by Nil; 15.06.2016 at 09:42.
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Old 15.06.2016, 09:11
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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the dog is of course part of the problem too. it wouldn't have happened with a Yorkshire terrier.
Just like a car accident won't happen without the car. Still, you don't shoot the car afterwards; just the driver*.

or maybe that's just where I'm from; around here you use prison and fines, I think
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Old 15.06.2016, 09:33
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

Actually, I think a better analogy would be pit bulls and guns.

Potentially lethal in the wrong hands.
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Old 15.06.2016, 09:47
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

I (should) know better than to discuss this on EF, but one last try:

Please go back and read the position papers from experts in the links I posted. The AVMA, ASPCA, AVSAB are professionals in the field. And the ABA, America's lawyers for goodness sake, are the folks best qualified to understand why BSL is bad law.

The experts have proposed better ways to safeguard the public.

And before taking the website linked in post #2 as gospel, please do a bit research into that site and the woman behind it.

---

No one says that there isn't a problem, there clearly is. But breed bans are not the answer.

BSL is not only inherently wrong, but more important to public safety, BSL is ineffective. BSL is a sop to unthinking emotion, an easy way for officialdom to sidestep the hard work of fixing the problem. BSL is not an effective solution.

An example: the Netherlands repealed it's BSL in 2008, after studies showed BSL had no effect on public safety.

---

Yes, there is a problem with irresponsible owners. A serious problem.

Heck, based on many of the doozy posts on EF, a good number of dog owners here shoudn't be left in charge of a potted plant, let alone a sentient being. We have posters who mock the idea ownership responsibility at every chance, posters who refuse to follow the very simple training regulations, posters who write that they are proud to be scofflaws.

And among those are folks who claim to be dog lovers.

I despair.

Yes, there is a problem. Yes, we must take action. But BSL is not the answer.

I'm with the experts on this one - better owner education, better training is the way forward.

Switzerland already has laws to that effect on the books - if only we would actually enforce them. Time to add consequences for non-compliance, time to consistently take action against the scofflaws.

And perhaps most importantly: time to take action against public officials who turn a blind eye.

Let's address the real problem.
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Old 15.06.2016, 10:26
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

I can't help but notice the similarities between pro 2nd amendment supporters in the US, and BSL opponents.


"Guns/dogs don't kill people, people kill people"
"Assault weapons/pit bulls are a nebulous term open to interpretation and generally just based on looks"


Well for the sake of consistency, just like I think you don't need an AR-15 with a 50 round magazine to defend your home, you don't need a 120 pound Presa Canario to be a happy dog owner.
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Old 15.06.2016, 10:39
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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I can't help but notice the similarities between pro 2nd amendment supporters in the US, and BSL opponents.


"Guns/dogs don't kill people, people kill people"
"Assault weapons/pit bulls are a nebulous term open to interpretation and generally just based on looks"


Well for the sake of consistency, just like I think you don't need an AR-15 with a 50 round magazine to defend your home, you don't need a 120 pound Presa Canario to be a happy dog owner.
There are many things you don't need yet are dangerous in the wrong hands. Should we ban them all?
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Old 15.06.2016, 10:47
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

Yet I don't want to walk in the street and be scared because I don't know if the person who is at the end of the pitbul's leech is a good owner or not.

I don't trust humans enough to think that changing the law, mentality, educations, etc would work.

Sadly, common sense isn't something everybody was born with.
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Old 15.06.2016, 10:54
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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Actually, I think a better analogy would be pit bulls and guns.

Potentially lethal in the wrong hands.
Perhaps rather than a ban, some kind of licensing scheme would be in order? Only well trained, proven responsible humans can own such a dog? You can get exemption certificates for specific dogs if the court is satisfied that that dog isn't dangerous.

I had to look up BSL. It's not Basel Airport. It's not British Sign Language. It's Breed Specific Legislation. But it's not breed - it's appearance. Presumably to cover mongrels.
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Old 15.06.2016, 12:10
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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There are many things you don't need yet are dangerous in the wrong hands. Should we ban them all?
No, because most of us realise that some common sense is needed rather than offering a childish and unconstructive suggestion.
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Old 15.06.2016, 12:57
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

I have checked Diggy's FB and saw they are still deliberating. A vet is supposed to figure out how much % pit bull Diggy is. Often shelters and adoption papers write down that the dog is another breed to circumvent the BSL.

From my experience I do think BSL is effective in protecting people and other pets. Where people live in close proximity with pits, attacks happen very often and as Nil said, you don't feel safe walking down the street anymore.

Where I lived the fences could not be high and strong enough to keep pitbulls inside. You'd hear of pit bull attacks in local news almost daily, followed by desperate attempts of the local community to raise money and pay for surgeries, rehabilitation, medication etc.
It wasn't rare to hear of some who were attacked by their own dogs. Owners would blame themselves, or their kids for the attacks. The dogs would regularly find a way to get out and jump the first victim they ran across. As a result, parents were afraid to let kids play in their own yards, let alone parks.. that is not a way to live.

Even the best raised pit bulls can suddenly attack. I think it is their genetically predisposed instinct that makes them attack. But that's not the only dangerous part of them.
Once an attack starts you have little time to save the victim, especially a small child. Not saying other dogs aren't as likely to attack but their attack is less likely to be deadly. While many dogs bite and then run away, pi tbulls don't let go until either they or their victim is dead.

Again, it is not a pit bull's fault to be born a pit bull, but that doesn't mean we should not have regulations in place to protect others who have as much right to be alive and well.

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I (should) know better than to discuss this on EF, but one last try:

Please go back and read the position papers from experts in the links I posted. The AVMA, ASPCA, AVSAB are professionals in the field. And the ABA, America's lawyers for goodness sake, are the folks best qualified to understand why BSL is bad law.

The experts have proposed better ways to safeguard the public.

And before taking the website linked in post #2 as gospel, please do a bit research into that site and the woman behind it.

---

No one says that there isn't a problem, there clearly is. But breed bans are not the answer.

BSL is not only inherently wrong, but more important to public safety, BSL is ineffective. BSL is a sop to unthinking emotion, an easy way for officialdom to sidestep the hard work of fixing the problem. BSL is not an effective solution.

An example: the Netherlands repealed it's BSL in 2008, after studies showed BSL had no effect on public safety.

---

Yes, there is a problem with irresponsible owners. A serious problem.

Heck, based on many of the doozy posts on EF, a good number of dog owners here shoudn't be left in charge of a potted plant, let alone a sentient being. We have posters who mock the idea ownership responsibility at every chance, posters who refuse to follow the very simple training regulations, posters who write that they are proud to be scofflaws.

And among those are folks who claim to be dog lovers.

I despair.

Yes, there is a problem. Yes, we must take action. But BSL is not the answer.

I'm with the experts on this one - better owner education, better training is the way forward.

Switzerland already has laws to that effect on the books - if only we would actually enforce them. Time to add consequences for non-compliance, time to consistently take action against the scofflaws.

And perhaps most importantly: time to take action against public officials who turn a blind eye.

Let's address the real problem.
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Old 15.06.2016, 12:59
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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It's not the dogs fault if his jaw is so strong that only a bullet or 3 will have it open. It is not the dog's fault for its breed. It's the human who bred them into "land sharks".

A Yorkshire won't do this damage because he doesn't have the same jaw.

But it's still not the dogs fault to be a dog.
you could say the same for a crocodile
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Old 15.06.2016, 13:04
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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you could say the same for a crocodile
Indeed. I don't know many people who have a crocodile their home.
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Old 15.06.2016, 13:14
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Re: Bloody bloody BSL :(

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Indeed. I don't know many people who have a crocodile their home.
unless you live in florida http://www.orlandosentinel.com/featu...314-story.html
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