The dog has fallowed humans for over 11,000 years, thus there is not so much wild about them anymore.
There have even been speculations about that dogs don't even come from wolves, but have the same ancestors as wolves (just like the man and the monkey). To prove that theory take a look at the hunting success percent and hunting strategies of the wild wolf (~ 10% of success) and the wild dog Dingo (~ 80% of success).

What's the true nature of the dog? Depends completely on witch breed you are talking about. And so many of them were made by man with a specific purpose in mind.
A Labrador should retrieve a pray without damaging it.
A Terrier / Pinscher original purpose was to hunt and kill rats.
A Border Collie should be able to gather sheep.
A Dobermann and a Schäfer should be fearless and strong protector, good in obedience and tracking.
And some breeds have the only purpose to keep their master company. Like Papillons. The story says that the French ladies were not always too fond of their husbands and having their little Papillion in their lap would keep the hands of the husband away.

Does vasectomy/tubectomy work for dogs? Just asking...

Agreed with the rest of your post.

I think the "spiritless" observation hold even if you control for age, but that is just my subjective opinion.

It is an interesting question but the real answer lies in eugenics, domestication and sexual/behavioural artificial selection, as apposed to natural selection. It has been found, in quite a high profile study in Russia conducted over the past 50 years using foxes, that selectively breeding for docility has strange added side effects. The Foxes became mentally more like the puppies they once where, and started to develop differing coat colours and receive gene faults like curley tails or floppy ears.
With eugenically selected behaviour traits came unwanted defects, as can be seen in many dog breeds today (e.g. hip dysplasia).

It has been conclusively found that wild animals cannot be adequately domesticated; it takes about 5-6 generations of eugenics, possibly more to develop an animal suitably genetically altered to be viewed as 'domesticated'.

To answer your question, your dog is significantly genetically different from a wolf on the physiological level, we as humans over possibly thousands of years have affected and created the genus canis familiaris, and it is impossible for a member of that genus to ever regress to canis lupus.

Imho, I dont think the word "spiritless" is accurate. Calm would be a more appropriate word to use. Afterall, you've only encountered the dog for what, less than 5 minutes? Hardly the full picture. See the dog in its home environment, interaction with its owner and you probably wouldnt use the word spiritless. I might be biased but I will never use that word on any dog, young or old.

Dogs as a species are intelligent, adaptable, and opportunistic. When we domesticated the dog all those millennia ago we changed nature's rules - and dogs quickly learned new skills in order to thrive in a human-dominated environment.

I would imagine that the feral dogs ExMilExPat encountered had learned that well-developed hunting skills and pack behavior were necessary in order to survive in those harsh conditions. Dogs are first and foremost adaptable.

By contrast, I spent some time observing ferals in a very different environment (rural China, and Lantau Island in HK), one in which food was more plentiful, whose behavior towards each other and towards humans was quite different.

A pack of semi-feral dogs on Lantau - most of whom were offspring of abandoned domestic dogs, with some of those once-pet dogs still living in the pack, lived on the outskirts of our neighborhood. Their primary food source was scavenging; food was fairly accessible and the best pickings came from wherever humans lived. The semi-ferals quickly adopted more domestic dog-like behavior when an opportunity arose to live with, or in close proximity to, humans. In the pack seemed far more fluid, only loosely organized, and there was less of the working co-ordination to be seen. Individuals begging for hand-outs quickly replaced pack scavenging behavior when opportunities arose. These dogs had adapted behaviors that were most likely to succeed in their particular environment.

In fact, I'd call these dogs semi-domesticated rather than semi-feral.

I also had regular encounters with another pack who to my layman's eye seemed to indeed be wild(er) dogs, or at least those who had been many more generations removed from domesticated strays. Perhaps because these dogs found scavenging around human habitation less consistently rewarding hunting small game provide more of their food. The wilder pack remained warier of interaction with people, and would not initiate direct contact with humans, mostly retreating when humans came close. Their basic behavior towards humans remained appeasement rather than conflict. These dogs were still quite opportunistic scavengers - given the choice between game and scavenged food, they tended to go for the easier option. Again, they had adapted to the resources available in their environment.

Fascinating critters.

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Niranjan, the 'spiritless' behavior you see is certainly anything but. It's not lack of spirit - it's good training. A 'spirited' dog - for which read: untrained and out of control, will not thrive in Swiss society. We demand obedience to the owner and calm behavior - these intelligent and adaptable dogs quickly learned that displaying those qualities earns rewards, while the opposite has negative consequences..

Yes, it is still survival of the fittest, but in this environment we have simply redefined fitness. The 'fittest' dog is no longer the best hunter, but rather the one who has trained his humans to open the biscuit cupboard.

Take those same 'spiritless' dogs to an open field where free running and play is allowed, or better yet, take them to an Agility or Flyball or other dog sport course - you'll see 'spirit' in abundance.

As others have said, the presence or lack of reproductive organs has less influence on behavior in a well-trained dog. That a dog becomes lethargic and fat after spaying/neutering is largely a myth fueled by owner's behaviors. Most pet dogs are neutered after the frenetic puppy and teenage stage is past; of course a young adult is calmer than a pup, and an older adult is calmer still. That's largely maturity, one will see it with or without reproductive organs. That a dog is allowed to gain weight is solely the fault of the owner. Stop feeding too much, get off the couch and give the dog appropriate exercise!

Neutering/spaying is indeed 'unnatural', but so is the human-dominated environment in which most dogs - pets, working dogs, and ferals - live. And that environment simply can not sustain the ever increasing numbers of dogs born - hence the need to limit reproduction.

In many places where large populations of strays, semi-feral, and feral dogs live in close proximity to humans, welfare groups often practice 'catch, castrate and release' as one of the preferred management options. Catch, castrate and release is a far more humane option to limit dog populations than the usual practices - allowing the dogs to starve to death, to die in agony from poisoned bait, or mass culls where the dogs are clubbed to death. There is nothing 'natural' about the way many feral and semi-feral dogs die.

Far better in my eyes to prevent the numbers from spiraling out of control in the first place.

(For what it's worth - in my wholly anecdotal observations of a limited sample size... I've never seen a spayed/neutered feral become lazy and lethargic. Living by their wits, as they do, they tend to stay lean and keen.)


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More or less off topic, but for an interesting fictional look at the human/wolf interaction (with liberal doses of philosophy, psychology, and fast-paced entertainment) I highly recommend the novel 'Wolf Totem' by Jiang Rong.

Seriously brilliant post

Wonderful replies indeed. natural selection may not be the single fitting answer, but it seems to be true that Dogs have in general modified/adapted/re-organised to suit the environment and the servility...(a bit too harsh word, sorry if i had wounded the dog lovers) expected of them

It was a comment on the thought that:
"we are not having a situation for the dogs to behave in its natural way..."

With domesticated breeds, hundreds of years of selective and inbreeding has altered what is their "natural behaviour." What is "natural behaviour" for them is determined by the function bred into them and their environment. It can't be compared to what is "natural behaviour" for a wolf.

Fox hounds have been selectively bred as hunters so of course a feral colony of fox hounds would hunt. That makes them "fox hound-like", not "wolf-like".

The Kuwait stories are a point in case. Wolves, not being domesticated, are fairly shy animals on the whole. They steer clear of humans.

Practically all wild animals, no matter what species, steer clear of humans as a matter of instinct. Animals such as ducks, pigeons etc learn about humans by watching their mothers beg for food when they are babies. In Spain there was a stray cat that would beg for food at our back door accompanied by her kittens. I'm sure they grew up to do the same. There were other feral cats that would run away if they even saw you in the distance. I guess those grew up without human contact.

So most wild or feral animals that don't fear humans are either escaped pets or at least experienced proximity to humans in their juvenile years. I guess the dogs of the Kuwait story were abandoned or lost pets and so knew about humans and didn't fear them. Probably their wild-born offspring would be much more wary of humans

The dog I adopted from a shelter back in my home country had one ovary taken out and the fallopian tube tied on the other side. The vet told me that would help her retain some hormones. Don't know about vasectomy for male dogs though. Would anyone else know?


As for the spirit in dogs you see here, I'd like to tell you about our foster labrador. She would lead her trainer, who sometimes wears a blindfold now, around town and the trainer hasn't walked into a pole or fallen into the lake. But the moment, you relieve the dog of her duties, take off her halter and leash and tell her "Free to play!", she'd tear around a meadow for the sheer joy of running. Better still, if she has dog friends to race around with her. I feel happy just watching her.

If you have the interest and the time any first Saturday of the month, go and see how the guide dog school develops and trains their dogs. You can ask them about the nature of their dogs and some will speak to you in English too if you prefer.

Details here:
http://www.blindenhundeschule.ch/htm...ichtigung.html

Not another Swiss dating thread or an svp ad

I think that when it comes to what is "natural" there's big difference between domesticated, feral and wild.
For domesticated animals being around and depending on humans is "natural". That's reflected in their behaviour and instincts.
For wild animals, surviving without humans is "natural" and that impacts their behaviour and instincts.
Feral animals like the ones mentioned in Kuwait are a problem because they've been deprived of their "natural" domesticated environment. They may go back into the wild but that doesn't make them wild animals because they lack the instincts and behaviour of wild animals. And as long as they hang around humans, they'll never become wild, even if they live in the wild.

Getting back to the OP, the point I'm trying to make is I don't think that in every pet dog there's a wolf waiting to get out. The wild has been bred out long ago. Threaten a pet dog and it might get aggressive. Cut off it's food and it might see you as meat. That doesn't mean such behaviour is natural to it. What you have to be more aware of are the qualities that have been bred into it. This distinction is really important when learning how to handle/respond to domesticated dogs.

I agree with Dakman, it depends which country the dog is in. Swiss dogs are in no way like South African dogs. I sometimes think Swiss dogs are all robots, they don't even dare look at a stranger while walking - that is until we adopted Newton, our Pug. Granted, he grew up in the Bahamas, which probably explains his laid-back, cheeky nature! South African dogs are generally more alert, less disciplined and rather aggro.