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Old 07.01.2009, 16:46
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escape the grey

Since it's brass monkeys out there and hastened snowed so everything is pretty hardpacked I'm thinking about going X-country skate skiing this weekend. Proabably Lenzerheide and probably Sauturday, if anyone fancies joining me. I had some lessons last year but am still at the 'ugly duckling with sniffs of swan' stage.

Here's the link to the webcam http://www.lenzerheide.com/sites/wet...lauf_lenz.html
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Old 07.01.2009, 16:51
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Re: escape the grey

I want to go this weekend to look for a teacher and lessons for XC skating skiing, so I'll be ready to join you.

But why Lenzerheide ?

Einsiedeln is not far and it was sunny last weekend when it was all grey at the city. Also there are plenty of places to do XC near Zug with teachers and prepared areas.
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Old 07.01.2009, 17:10
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Re: escape the grey

mostly because i've done quite alot of langlauf-ing at Einsiedeln & never at lenzerheide where the loipe looks really nice and interesting. As I have more time at the weekend I like to go further afield.

I can highly recommend Andreas in Studen nr Einsiedeln (flater & therefore easier to learn) for lessons.

Also planning to do a longer ski up the Engadine valley (not the marathon, too many people, the route would be really rutted by the time I got on it and I'd probably get stabbed by somebodies poles) but some of it's course, Scuol - St Moritz or starting further down the Engadine. Not sure of the details, it's just an idea at this stage.
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Old 07.01.2009, 17:18
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Re: escape the grey

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I had some lessons last year but am still at the 'ugly duckling with sniffs of swan' stage.

Here's the link to the webcam http://www.lenzerheide.com/sites/wet...lauf_lenz.html
With one hour of lessons under my belt, I can safely say I aspire to be an ugly duckling.....
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Old 07.01.2009, 17:28
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Re: escape the grey

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With one hour of lessons under my belt, I can safely say I aspire to be an ugly duckling.....

You'll be getting a great training effect and using muscles you don't when you bike - stick with it - it's such a nice feeling when you get a nice glide going.
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Old 07.01.2009, 17:40
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Re: escape the grey

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You'll be getting a great training effect and using muscles you don't when you bike - stick with it - it's such a nice feeling when you get a nice glide going.

Thanks I need the positive reinforcement.
Do you only do fitness training or do you also do coaching
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Old 07.01.2009, 18:24
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Re: escape the grey

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With one hour of lessons under my belt, I can safely say I aspire to be an ugly duckling.....
With 1.5 hours lessons and three practice sessions, I am officially announcing my retirement. Never have I found a sport so frustrating in my life. Ugly duckling is one thing, falling flat on my arse or face every few minutes without any adrenaline to back it up doesn't float my boat.
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Old 07.01.2009, 18:45
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Re: escape the grey

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With 1.5 hours lessons and three practice sessions, I am officially announcing my retirement. Never have I found a sport so frustrating in my life. Ugly duckling is one thing, falling flat on my arse or face every few minutes without any adrenaline to back it up doesn't float my boat.
mmm, I could say the same about MTB

Anyhow, I'll be heading to Einsiedeln this weekend to duck my way through and hit my ass and nose on the white steppes, It can't be that difficult, can it ?
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Old 07.01.2009, 18:52
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Re: escape the grey

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mmm, I could say the same about MTB

Anyhow, I'll be heading to Einsiedeln this weekend to duck my way through and hit my ass and nose on the white steppes, It can't be that difficult, can it ?
Compared to Cross Country skiing, MTB is a piece of p!ss. I found it one of the most difficult sports I have ever done... and I do quite a lot of sport. To be honest some of it is my patience. I like a high "fun" factor from my sports and I didn't get a big fun factor from XC skiing and therefore have no interest in persueing it anymore. On the contrary I tried normal skiing for the first time in the same period and liked that from the work go, so much so that I went and bought myself a set of skis (normally a snowboarder). I learned how to ski red runs by my second day, and I still fall on my ass after 3 days XC skiing.

So you have gone and bought XC ski gear without having even tried it?

You do realise it only cost 25CHF to hire don't you? I would try it first and only buy if you like it.
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Old 07.01.2009, 19:15
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Re: escape the grey

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Compared to Cross Country skiing, MTB is a piece of p!ss. I found it one of the most difficult sports I have ever done... and I do quite a lot of sport. To be honest some of it is my patience. I like a high "fun" factor from my sports and I didn't get a big fun factor from XC skiing and therefore have no interest in persueing it anymore. On the contrary I tried normal skiing for the first time in the same period and liked that from the work go, so much so that I went and bought myself a set of skis (normally a snowboarder). I learned how to ski red runs by my second day, and I still fall on my ass after 3 days XC skiing.

So you have gone and bought XC ski gear without having even tried it?

You do realise it only cost 25CHF to hire don't you? I would try it first and only buy if you like it.
No worries, long ago I discovered it was much cheaper to buy the discarded almost new equipement some guy tried 2 or 3 hours and gave up, than to rent.

If I don't like it I can sell it when next winter starts for almost the same ammount I paid for it.

rental costs is wasted money anyway.
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Old 07.01.2009, 19:28
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Re: escape the grey

Ah, and BTW I know the XC skiing is low on the fun factor and high on the suffering department.

As any other endurance sport.

I read this one is specially hard and demands a lot of work on all your muscle groups.

So it is closer to road cycling ( than to MTB ) as a winter alternative sport and tha't why I want to get into.

downhill skiing or snowbording is more like MTB I guess.

I enjoy alpine skiing but I don't feel I am doing the sport myself, there is a lot of waiting involved.

- go to the ski place
- wait for the lift
- go up the lift
- go down braking or modulating the speed with the skis.

I think once you develop the skills for the skating or touring XC skiing it would be much more like road cycling, you could also even do it near from home when it is enough snow, ( the touring XC variety at least as skating needs prepared areas).

We'll see
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Old 07.01.2009, 19:34
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Re: escape the grey

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Ah, and BTW I know the XC skiing is low on the fun factor and high on the suffering department.

As any other endurance sport.

I read this one is specially hard and demands a lot of work on all your muscle groups.

So it is closer to road cycling ( than to MTB ) as a winter alternative sport and tha't why I want to get into.

downhill skiing or snowbording is more like MTB I guess.

I enjoy alpine skiing but I don't feel I am doing the sport myself, there is a lot of waiting involved.

- go to the ski place
- wait for the lift
- go up the lift
- go down braking or modulating the speed with the skis.

I think once you develop the skills for the skating or touring XC skiing it would be much more like road cycling, you could also even do it near from home when it is enough snow, ( the touring XC variety at least as skating needs prepared areas).

We'll see
I disagree, I think certain MTBers are keen on suffering too but only if it leads to some white knuckling downhills. So probably depends on which type of MTB you are talking about.

Touring XC is closer to classic cross country skiing I believe, backfoot is loose, the hard part is that it usually involves skiing up a mountain, at least here in Switzerland.
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Old 07.01.2009, 21:29
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Re: escape the grey

Just some info for anyone out there who may be looking for a close-by skate ski area...

I just skated at Panoramloipe near Gibswil (not far from Wald, ZH).

It was brilliant! Nice wide track, nice views, etc. It's not Lenzerheid, Davos, or Eiseldein (forgive the spellings) but good and close to town.

Enjoy!
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Old 07.01.2009, 21:51
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Re: escape the grey

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Just some info for anyone out there who may be looking for a close-by skate ski area...

I just skated at Panoramloipe near Gibswil (not far from Wald, ZH).

It was brilliant! Nice wide track, nice views, etc.
yep and keeps the snow surprisingly well, but pretty hilly - hard if your just learning.
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Old 07.01.2009, 21:57
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Re: escape the grey

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I disagree, I think certain MTBers are keen on suffering too but only if it leads to some white knuckling downhills. So probably depends on which type of MTB you are talking about.

Touring XC is closer to classic cross country skiing I believe, backfoot is loose, the hard part is that it usually involves skiing up a mountain, at least here in Switzerland.
Yes the Touring XC skis and boots are similar to the alpine ones, but the bindings allow you to release the heel for going on the flats and climbs and fix it to go downhill.

The boots look very similar but I guess the Touring XC are softer have a more walkable sole and also have a different front to be held by the binding when the heel is loose

These are the ones

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Old 07.01.2009, 22:08
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Re: escape the grey

Ok guys I'm back from the wed eve run (where were you??)

and here's my take on XC skate skiing, hopefully helpful for those learning or contemplating learning.

I think there are 2 tricky, really frustrating stages to get through before you get to the 'fun bit'
-1st is the just can't seem to do any of it, the poles are too long, the ski's are too long and boy are they skinny, slippery things except when you try and slip them along in the direction you want to go
-2nd you've sort of got some of the technique and can at least travel somewhere, but it's all sooo much effort. Or the hills are at least. This is a bit like being an early intermediate alpine skier, sometimes it sort of feels ok but your definitely not having the most fun on the slope out there. It's tempting to just think you need more practice when in actual fact a couple lessons dotted in there could help the technique come along quite nicely. and a big chunk is technique not actually fitness. Only when it's all starting to really come together do you start to feel more at home on these ridiculously narrow ski's and can more happily do the step turns and race around like a lunatic, smuggly cruising past people whilst using not very much energy.

and one last bit , less is sometimes more. My technique sometimes gets better when I'm tired and try less, there's less thrashing around and some of the rough edges get smoothed out as I relax more. As freeheelers are fond of saying 'if it was easy it would be called snow boarding'
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Old 07.01.2009, 22:10
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Re: escape the grey

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Yes the Touring XC skis and boots are similar to the alpine ones, but the bindings allow you to release the heel for going on the flats and climbs and fix it to go downhill.

The boots look very similar but I guess the Touring XC are softer have a more walkable sole and also have a different front to be held by the binding when the heel is loose

These are the ones

Those are Telemark bindings on the left and Dynafit bindings on the right. They can be used for touring but they are not for XC skiing.
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Old 07.01.2009, 22:12
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Re: escape the grey

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Yes the Touring XC skis and boots are similar to the alpine ones, but the bindings allow you to release the heel for going on the flats and climbs and fix it to go downhill.

The boots look very similar but I guess the Touring XC are softer have a more walkable sole and also have a different front to be held by the binding when the heel is loose

These are the ones

The boots are almost exactly the same. Infact you can use normal alpine boots in most touring bindings (but they do need to be adjusted first). The type you showed are quite new on the market though and require a special boot.

The main difference between Alpine and Touring boots is the sole. Touring boots have a sole like a hiking boot to allow you to walk without slipping. They also have an articulation in the ankle which can give a small amount of movement or be locked just like an alpine boot. I spent last week going through the Alpine/Touring boot question and in the end went for touring ones.
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Old 08.01.2009, 00:46
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Re: escape the grey

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The boots are almost exactly the same. Infact you can use normal alpine boots in most touring bindings (but they do need to be adjusted first). The type you showed are quite new on the market though and require a special boot.

The main difference between Alpine and Touring boots is the sole. Touring boots have a sole like a hiking boot to allow you to walk without slipping. They also have an articulation in the ankle which can give a small amount of movement or be locked just like an alpine boot. I spent last week going through the Alpine/Touring boot question and in the end went for touring ones.
do you have the Touring bindings too ?

I know that the stiffer the boot the better control you have and also the stronger you have to be to flex them.

I have 2 pair of boots, one is Flex 60/70 ( dual setup ) and the other Flex 90 and you can feel the difference in control for sure, the 90 is better, and also you get tired faster on the 90.

I guess the touring boots have a lower flex index and if you don't have the touring bindings anyway you end losing the best qualities of both components , no ? ( soft boots but no heel release )
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Old 08.01.2009, 09:56
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Re: escape the grey

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do you have the Touring bindings too ?

I know that the stiffer the boot the better control you have and also the stronger you have to be to flex them.

I have 2 pair of boots, one is Flex 60/70 ( dual setup ) and the other Flex 90 and you can feel the difference in control for sure, the 90 is better, and also you get tired faster on the 90.

I guess the touring boots have a lower flex index and if you don't have the touring bindings anyway you end losing the best qualities of both components , no ? ( soft boots but no heel release )
To be honest I am not a god enough skier to tell the difference in the lateral stiffness of a boot. The flexion/extension stiffness can be adjusted in my boot, but the soft option is only for walking not for skiing. I think to really tell the differences on this kind of stuff you need to be someone who can drive an edge very hard at high speed. The majority of skiers who I see on the pistes (me included) tend to release the ski to slow themselves down as they come out of the turn.

Yes I have touring bindings too, but would have gotten a hybrid boot regardless of touring bindings are not. I am not a world cup downhill skier and don't intend to be so absolute stiffness at a cost to comfort does not interest me. It doesn't make sense to get this set up unless you intend to tour (and then you also need alot more safety equipment too). The bindings and boots are more expensive for touring, so it would make it a very expensive option if you were just going ride on the piste.
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