The guy clearly said that "We can organize a guide to take us around."

Just curious, is there a way to go skiing with people without anyone being responsible for the others? Is there a legal equivalent to "come at your own risk" kind of thing?

It's never quite as clear-cut as that. There's always an assumption that everyone will behave as their experience would suggest, so if, for example, you were skiing with me, a qualified instructor, even if I wasn't actually working as such, and I took you onto a glacier where you had an accident, I'd potentially be in big trouble, as I should (and do) know better. But if you're also as, or more, experienced then it wouldn't make a jot of difference who organised the trip, or suggested the route. Similarly, if you're just with a few mates and you're the most experienced, you'd be expected to act accordingly, but in neither case would there be an automatic assumption of liability.

Or, to put it another way, you're always skiing "at your own risk", regardless of who you're with, or who organised the skiing group. There's no specific assumption of responsibilty by any individual at all, but an implicit responsibilty on any or all involved.

I'm more or less fully equipped (tele. skis, skins, beacon, etc) but less than fully experienced in skiing in the alps; more so with smaller mountains in the western USA. I have been to one avi. course some time ago, and have a an idea about how to use my beacon, dig pits, measure slopes etcetera, but would like to get out and practice some. If anyone is interested in a meet and great easymode tour, perhaps with a little bit of overkill assement just for fun, I would be very excited to participate!

I think everyone has to be cautious with skiing off-piste and being part of a group it is correct that the 'most experienced' person can be held responsible in Switzerland. However it is possible to ski off-piste with friends if this is accepted and you are skiing within certain limits e.g. known routes, non glaciated terrain, avalanche risk less than 3 and the other warning signs for avalanches like temperature changes, knowledge of the snow layers in the snow pack, have the correct equipment, etc. etc. etc. However to be safe - go with a mountain guide that knows the area - there are lots in Engelberg http://www.bergfuehrer-engelberg.ch/

I know Ace is up for a days skiing with mountain guide , however he is busy on Sunday so would not be able to join.

The only time I have been in an Avalanche situation was with a mountain guide, The guide Nigel S tried to set off a mini avalanche , nothing happened he skied the tiny slope approx 5m x 5m, I followed again no problem. The 3rd skier got covered completly, he was able to put his hand up out through the snow & then stood up.

If a guide takes you anywhere you would not go alone, it's OK until something happens to the guide. Whilst a guide is helpful depending one one too much could be fatel.

I am not a guide. I am just trying to put together group of people who are interested in skitouring, so that we can rent a certified guide and go for a trip.

Sounds like we better check with our mummys first.

Just to clarify... Noone here is suggesting not to do it. From what I can gather (reading between the lines) the people who are telling people to exercise caution are possibly the people who already ski off-piste regularly.

I think what we are questioning is how sensible it is to get a group of unknown people together with the distinct intention of going off-piste and not having a guide present.

Yes the poster did say at the start that the group could get a guide, but the post the prompted my comment didn't mention a guide and sounded a bit like, lets just go to Engelberg tomorrow and go freeriding. This could cause grief if someone comes along with no experience and is unable or unwilling to be able to judge the safety of a route for themselves.

As it happens I ski off-piste myself relatively often. I don't go with strangers as a rule. And some of the most dangerous situations I've been in have been due to either being with guides or following the advice of a guide. Having said that, if the experience level of the group is unknown, the guide is at least someone who accepts the responsibility so that normal people like the rest of us don't have to.

There are a few places (Pischa is one that springs straight to mind) who will ask you for the name of the most experienced member of the group before selling you a single use ticket to get up the mountain. This is in case there is an accident they know who to hold responsible! When I did a tour there with a friend we tried to acknowledge that we were taking equal responsibility but they still wanted the name of the person with the most experience.

Count me in. My mum's back in the states and she prefers to hear about these things after they've already happened

During outings of the mountain club of EPFL, everyone has to sign a responsibility discharge form which takes away all responsibilities from the outing organizers in case of an accident. I guess you may do the same.

It would have little or no legal value. As a leader for the Ski Club of Great Britain, it's my role often to take people skiing off-piste, within club-defined policy. The club's lawyers, in conjunction with mountain guides and other skiing professionals, have thoroughly investigated this area, to the satisfaction, for example, of the Club's liability insurers.

Before skiing, we read out a participation statement (which members have already read and signed as understood) which serves to highlight the responsibility of each member towards the others, and that they ski at their own risk. The main purpose of this is to ensure that we've made our level of responsibility clear, as well as that of the group members. It in no way limits the scope of that responsibility, nor our duty of care to group members.

I note from google search results that some other ski clubs, like the school one you linked to, have a much more rigid-sounding agreement to sign, which would appear to absolve the club or its representatives of any responsibility at all, but our advisors were clear that such an agreement would not be enforceable under any European legal system.

The big problem with the participitation statement is its written by UK council relative to UK Law. However there are no mountains in the UK, there are in Scotland however that would come under Scottish law!
In the event of an accident in Switzerland, the law of Switzerland is important, not the UK. In Switzerland it's not possible for a leader to decline responsibility, he is always 100% responsible under Swiss law, & being that only mountain guides & some highly qualified ski instructors are the only people legally allowed to go off piste with a group.

The Participation statement will probably protect the Club against claims from Adults in the UK as it attempts to remove any 'duty of care' by the leader, it's going to be re-written as in it's current form probably does not do as much as it could.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out! That Club EPFL disclaimer will not cut the mustard for an accident, especially as the club is Swiss & they would be expected to know about Swiss law.

This cannot be true, otherwise going ski touring or off piste skiing with a bunch of friends without a guide would be illegal.

As far as I know if someone is a mountain guide or a ski instructor, then this person is always responsible for less experienced people in a group whether or not the person is working. However, if a group consist only of recreational skiers who don't have any formal mountaineering/skiing qualification, then it would be difficult to tell who is a leader responsible for the group (especially if they have the same experience). I'm familiar only with one case when a man was sentenced for the manslaughter of his wife in an avalanche (details of the verdict). In this case he triggered an avalanche from above his wife by following her down a slope in avalanche terrain, so he caused the avalanche. However, I'm not familiar with any case when a recreational skier was sentenced because someone from his group died in an avalanche which was triggered naturally of by the victim.

In Switzerland if someone dies in an off piste accident there is a very good chance that the most experianced person in the group will face a charge under Art 117.

I was told by a defence lawyer in Martigny VS that in principle off piste skiing is 'illegal' except with a guide or ski instructer with off piste qualifications. He is acting for a friend who is being charged under Art 117, so I do believe it's accurate.

Generally in CH people get away with many things until something goes wrong, then the finger comes out to point at who is RESPONSIBLE.

It's all a bit grey. Going off piste in itself is not illegal (even though there have been some misguided calls to make it so!). There is no problem at all with it as long as nothing happens. If an accident occurs there will be an investigation and they will try to apportion blame. They will look to see who the most experienced person in the group is and ask that person why they were where they were in the first place. If it is found that there were any unnecessary risks taken by the group as a whole the most experienced person (and/or organiser) will be held responsible and may be charged with gross negligence.

It's a bit like the winter tyres thing. Having them on your car is not law, but if you have an accident in winter with summer tyres on you may be found negligent.

The husband/wife case is an illustration of the above. You'd think that this would be a clear case of two people going for a tour in equal circumstances. However the husband was deemed to be more experienced and therefore responsible for his wife.

Ever noticed that it's not that easy to get to go ski touring with local people here. I've had a lot of people tell me this. It's basically for this reason. I have a number of local friends who I go with, but at the start I planned the routes and asked them if they wanted to come along, they were more experienced than me, but I'm a bit of a map nerd so came up with ideas and have done a number of avalanche courses. Otherwise, I'd probably still not get invited along as my experience level is less than that of others in the group.

It's not true.

The key point that might make it so is that those are the only groups allowed to charge for the privilege. But even that's not quite as cut and dried as it might be, as the rules are not laws as such, so can't be enforced by police and courts. At least as I understand it, and I stand to be corrected on this. There is a bill in the consultation stage that seeks to clarify this and may limit off-piste instruction to only Swiss-qualified instructors, but it's not planned to come into force for a couple of years yet, and the exact regulations aren't clear yet.

Actually if it's the bill I'm thinking about it comes into effect next year!

From 2013 anyone operating certain "extreme" sports needs to have a licence issued by the government. By the governments definition the sports to be included are things like canyoning, bungee jumping and all snow-sports including snowshoe hiking! The law includes anyone who are operating the activities in a commercial manner.

There is the possibility for the government to add sports to the list at any time.

Fortunately it applies only to commercial activities. I would be surprised if it applied to recreational skiers and hikers because in this case it would violate Freedom to roam enforced by the Swiss Civil Code.

As for the topic of liability in avalanche accidents there is a very comprehensive guide Avalanches et responsabilités.

D'oh! It's 2012 already?

Our hope is that equivalence will be recognised, so that any ISIA ski instructor who's done the required courses will be allowed to teach off-piste, not just those holding the Swiss BBT licence. BASI are active, I understand, in working together with other regulatory bodies to allow such recognition.