@kimba1 - good to hear about your interest in trail running
@Niranjan - I just popped over to Italy for a couple days last week but I did not have time to take in any trails - but I did get a awesome view of the Alps so that did my heart good.

I agree that trail ultra running is not particularly more difficult than road running. It is definitely less stressful because of the great physical and social environment. My feeling is that road runners watch the clock so a lot of energy is focused on PRs. Benchmarking your running performance is a good thing, but clocking a great time is not why I run.

There is a lot of ebb and flow in the longer runs so walking and taking short food breaks can actually get you to the finish line sooner. It is as much about input as it is about output. Yeah, the fast guys will blow through the first 2 or 3 aid stations but by 60+ km, they are stopping to take on nutrition, too. Ideally, they should to be eating more sooner, but there is some jockeying for position early in the race so those guys are looking to get a good lead before breaking at an aid stop.

Also, perceived effort changes a lot on the long runs. I paced a fellow club runner last weekend for the last 10 miles of a 100 mile race and the running pace by that time was more or less a walking speed. It is a lot easier to short step a running gait than a walking gait, so running to say you ran may not get you to the end quicker. I personally like the change in gaits because it works different muscles and helps extend my effort.

Anyway...my 2 pences

The trail running season may be coming to an end in CH, but it is mostly kicking off here in the US South. I have 600 - 700 km of race "miles" between now and spring time! Whoohoo!!

Btw, do your running clubs sponsor group trail runs? That is a good way to get in some miles and do an informal supported ultra.

But we both know that is a lie or soon going to be false anyway. Let me know which ones you are running with me from the 2010 race calendar

Thanks for sharing these insights, which I can now appreciate.

The only thing I can further clarify is, in some of the tough Alpine trail runs (and by "tough", I simply mean the terrain, and not super-long endurance runs which is what you seem to be primarily referring to), walking is simply not an option.

Maybe a picture will clarify what I am saying: You see the mountain in the right half of the picture (taken on the trail de aiguilles rouges)? That must be around 40-45 degrees incline. Now there were many sections, several hundred meters of altitude in all, I think, where the inclination was more like 75-80 degrees, and people were expected to go straight up them as there were no trails there. Of course the routes are carefully chosen, there were generous holds, sometimes steel ladders added, so it is not like one needs to be a rock-climber to do them safely, and ladies in their 50s were doing it, but the point is, one necessarily has to use hands to haul oneself up however elite the runner may be. Especially when one is not with fresh mind, and legs are a bit wobbly after several hours of running, one wouldn't want to take chances there. That is actually the time when totally different muscles work, and thus provides respite to the body.

The more serious runners did run sections of the route a few weeks before the race, to understand these intricacies. Although I didn't pre-run (rather, I didn't dare/afford to do it alone), I think it is worth doing if you can.

The Inferno half - as long as the weather is better than this year

Probably the Zurich marathon as it's great to be able to take part in a race which is literally ten minutes up the road.

I'll have to think about the others depending on my training stategy this winter (run rather than think about running).

My training most be getting better - the Luzern marathon was pretty full-on with (at least) 150m of ascent and I finished that

Guys, a very basic query: does anyone know what is this product called glove warmer (or was it heater), I have seen it in sportshops but clueless how it works.

Thing is my fingers freeze very fast while running, although I will be sweating on the body, and this spoiling the fun of running.

I can wear thick fleece lined gloves instead, but they don't look nice on my sleek running profile not easy to store in pockets when not needed. I have tried wearing very thin gloves under a normal cycling glove, which works better, but I would still like to know of better solutions.

So what is this product. I think the wrapper said it keeps you warm for some hours, does it actually generate heat by chemical reaction or something

The old ones had a piece of carbon burning in an semi-oxygen-starved metal box so it burnt very slowly. Very cumbersome.
I used to take one winter climbing - they were great for those long belays when your mate wasn't climbing fast enough

The newer ones have a chemical reaction that you start by mixing two chemicals. They do work.

Do you wear a hat? Do you still get cold hands if you wear a hat?

Do you have windproof gloves? I've got some thin fleece ones with a Gortex windstopper TM lining that work really well.

Hi, Thanks Tom.

This is the first serious winter running for me, last winter I was a 15-min street runner . hence these queries.

I think I am getting your point, but just to make sure: can you elaborate why you ask about the hat when I am talking about the fingers?
No, I was not wearing a hat up to now, but now with temp hitting zero, I will. Will see if dressing warmly helps too.

That reminds me, someone I was conversing with during a race, mentioned in passing that cold fingers is a medical condition related to circulatory system . Do you know the name, so that I can google and worry myself over it .


I didn't know goretex technology has reached gloves; I used to wear some athleticum gloves

Niranjan, google 'Raynaud's Disease' (sorry, i'm not good at doing linky things). I suffer from mild symptoms and i know quite a few people who suffer too, some of them have been diagnosed with the condition.

Good luck.

K

People who eat a lot of fresh fruit and raw vegetables are more prone having cold hands and feet. I cant remember why this is now unfortunately but winter is a good time to ditch the salads and have cooked veg instead.

People say that putting a hat on when you have cold hands and feet is an old wife's tale but ignore them.

Your body will try and ensure that you get warm blood pumped to your brain - it's the last thing to shut down.

If you are cold, it will do this at the expense of your furthermost capillaries from your heart by restricting them - i.e. your hands and your feet.
Thus, you'll get cold hands and feet before anything else.

And, to compound the problem, your hands especially, are really sensitive to the cold due to all the nerves so you'll feel the cold more there.

Putting a hat on reduces the heat loss from your head - where you need to keep it most.

The beauty of a hat is that they are a brilliant way to regulate the body temperature - easy to put on or take off and light to carry.

Even if you have Raynaud's Disease, a hat will still help.

Thanks guys. I have been experimenting with your feedback. I now think I have below-normal tolerance to cold (hands only), but I don't think it is to the extent of being R'd disease.

Trial 1: The day I had posted this query, I had just worn a t shirt and a jacket and no hat for my Uetliberg run, and when the hands started freezing, I took off the jacket to wrap it around my hands...so running in a thin t-shirt in something like -8 C... In hindsight, the results are not surprising.

Trial 2: This time I wore one full layer and cap for an identical run, and this time it still hurt, but far less. I then took off the golves until it hurt almost as badly as the first time, to observe if there was characteristic coloring as in R's disease, luckily I could not see anything (I am presuming the color is a necessary condition for the Raynauds disease).

Trial 3: Yesterday I ran warmly with two full layers, again around -5 temp, and this time there was no hurt. However I could still begin to feel some tingling after half an hour.

So my conclusion is, I have below normal tolerance. I would still need to use these glove warmers for cycling or very long exposure, but for running an hour, I can manage by dressing right and keeping life simple.

I really don't understand this business of withstanding cold. I invariably see young adults (locals) wearing super-warm caps and gloves, but the majority of grandmas with elegant silver hair, wearing no hats (this was a "confused" smiley with the halos obfuscated by the X-mas hat ) It is exactly the opposite in India: wearing a cap is a trademark sign of old age or nursing mothers.

I suffer from Raynauds. I was diagnosed really young with it, but I totally forget I have it unless I read or hear someone talking about it. I have found the fitter I am the less it effects me, but the key for me not being troubled by it is correct equipment for whatever sports you are doing.

You'd be surprised how much difference wearing a hat and keeping your torso warm. After I was diagnosed I was told to wear gloves when windsurfing to prevent the numbness. Unfortunately gloves and windsurfing don't go well together so I stopped wearing the gloves and put up with the numbness. After a while of putting up with this I went all out and bought the best wetsuit that was available at the time. Almost instantly I managed to control my Raynauds in all but the worst days.

Since then I always try to make sure I have the best clothing I can for whatever sport I do, and I rarely suffer from Raynauds... or at least pretty much only when other people are suffering too!!! Only very occasionaly do I get a random attack of it for no reason these days. When I was first diagnosed I used to get purple hands and numbness while sitting at my desk doing my homework.

Moral of the story... keep your body and head warm wear gloves if appropriate and a Raynauds sufferer may not be distinguishable from someone of normal tolerance never mind low tolerance.

This is a very inspirational thread.

I just started running for the first time in my life in the fall while doing the couch to 5k plan and then did the Silvesterlauf fun run, really enjoyed it, and would like to do more. I'm not even remotely ready for a half marathon, but I'd like to try some 8-10km stuff in the next few months and then go from there. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to try next, or how to take it to the next level? I'm a big, slow guy, so I'm not in it to compete, just to complete.

Well done for making that first step.

I think races are great running motivators. It's easy to drift off track without something to aim for and the beauty of a race is that it's a defined target rather than something a bit vague.


Here are lots of local races - there's a pdf program which shows all the races and distances.


The other thing that people recommend is to join a running group. There are a few on this forum.

Have fun.

Thanks for the link, there a bunch of races there that seem appropriate. I'm already planning on doing the 10k Sihltalerlauf from the first post, but that's the only one I think I can manage out of that list.

Been thinking about this; if we consider a set of healthy people, my conjecture is (I really don't know whether it is true), the thinner people will be more likely to suffer cold hands (Raynauds or no Raynauds).

Was reading some blog-analyses of the two weather related deaths that occurred in Zugspitz extremeberglauf 2008 (as described earlier in the thread, the 2009 version was much shorter): the theory is, the fitter and better trained you are, the less body fat you have and the more you are able to push your body to the limits, and that puts you at greater risk. I have noticed some of the best hill cyclists and hill runners are relatively thinner, which makes their vital organs much less protected from the cold, so it is possible that thinner people and especially runners need to be extra-cautious about cold.

In contrast, the extreme-long distance swimmers like those who swim agross marathon lengths in the cold seas typically have a layer of insulating fat.

Just some food for thought to better undertand one's body and play safe.

Ok, I have still more doubts and discussions, which will be continued in the 2010 calendar later