I disagree, I think on piste skiing is far easier then snowboarding and most people I know that can do both say the same. Most people are not used to the idea of having both feet stuck together and going sideways so they tend to prefer the going forwards like they are walking. With skiing it is more difficult to catch an edge as if you catch one you can always balance yourself on the other leg, plus you have two edges to drive into icy pistes to get more grip.

Off piste is a different story and for me snowboarding is clearly easier in this respect.

I agree with you about the challenge of skiing off-piste, I like the challenge too, but for me snowboarding has also gotten more enjoyable since I started skiing. I was getting bored of boarding because I wasn't getting any better, now I get the feeling of improvement every time I step on skis, but some days its so much fun to cut loose on the snowboard.

Eire,

EXCELLENT POST, very comprehensive & correct!

I would expand/add 2 points:

1. TAKE AN AVALANCHE COURSE! - it's really a must if you're going to do a lot off off-piste &/or touring. SAC (Swiss Alpine Club) offers excellent ones. You can also ask at big dealers, e.g. Bächli Bergsport in ZH, Full Moons in Davos, Mountain High (or whatever they're called) in Verbier etc. etc. Courses usually last for a weekend, you learn how to assess conditions, use beepers, and...to DIG. Actually an area which is extremely important - no, it is not simple nor easy (esp in a big slide) - and sadly neglected. (There have been a couple of good articles about digging someone out in recent issues of Backcountry)

2. There are a number of avy beacon 'playgrounds' in Switzerland, the only one I know of is at Andermatt. Very sexy, you go in and search, you can set up multiple burials, etc.
There are others but at the moment I've forgotten how you locate them (perhaps via the BarryVox website..?)

wishing everyone great powder turns

Glenville

Hey, Glenville, welcome to Baden! Yes, there are some crazy Irishmen out there who want to risk their necks - and I'm with you: if you're going to do so, then for Pete's (St. Peter??) sake, make sure you know what to do if the Big One comes... We Californians take that to mean hiding under your bed in heavy earthquakes - but that's tough if you sleep on a futon on the floor... Personally, I can think of some much more pleasant ways to kick the bucket than being suffocated under a blanket of snow...

J.

I'm just back from a week's off-piste & randonee, and as well as an ARVA training exercise, our guide recommended the Black Diamond Avalung. I'm currently contemplating whether it's worth it or not (yet another thing to carry around with you) so does anyone have any experience with them?

I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this lately, and come to the conclusion that its probably not of any real use. First off, if you experience an avalanche there are a few things I would think of doing before sticking that in my mouth.

• Try to get out of the path.
• Try to kick off my board/ski's if there is really no escape.
• Try to swim and keep myself on the surface.
• Try to keep a space in front of my face so I can breath.

If you are really caught, avalanches have been know to take clothes, backpacks, helmets, goggles and anything else off the person caught. The chances of being able to keep the avalung in your mouth would be next to impossible.

This is just my opinion.

One piece of equipment I would seriously think about getting is the ABS rucksack. These are designed to keep you on top of the avalanche if you get caught. They problem is they cost about 1000CHF so are a fairly expensive piece of kit. Hopefully they come down in price soon. I have used the ABS backpack when guides I have been out with insisted that all clients must wear one. The backpack was comfortable and did not hinder me in anyway. The balls take up some space though so there is less space for equipment then in a similarly sized normal rucksack.

At the end of the day it is your own decision, and I guess anything that gives you an extra chance of survival is good. I'm just not 100% convinced how good the Avalung really is.

I have heard that the avalung works pretty well when you are skiing deep powder that keeps flying in your face. It enables you to breath rather than suffocating on "cold smoke".

I have an ABS pack which in theory seems to be a better alternative (staying on top rather than getting buried). I have an older Avalung that I am considering attaching to my ABS pack as an extra feature in the event of getting buried.

I am in no way endorsing these products as an alternative to proper training and route-selection. I take very few risks but a bit of extra insurance can't hurt in my opinion.

Eire,
it looks like you do water stuff...
I kayak, so the Avalung appeals to me a lot.
I've taken tumbles in fine primo pow a few times and went away thinking .'ah-ha...THAT'S
what they're on about! - BREATHING!'
- 'cause no matter how much you trying and how many (1000's) of times you roll,
when you go into a nasty-swirly hole that would swallow your VW bus, your brain goes on major hold and gets pretty much focused on this otherwise unimportant breathing stuff.
I also think wonder if you appreciate how fast avalanches move.
Ca. 200km/h..
So you HEAR it coming, then you're in it.
Significantly faster than one of those fast trains blows through a station here in CH
('achtung Zugdurchfahrt')
Apparently BD recommends putting the mouthpiece in already when you're e.g. crossing an exposed slope. 'cause you probably won't get it in in time if things start moving.
As for it coming out, well I don't know. Our jaw muscles are pretty freakin' strong (esp when we're FREAKED OUT and REAL AIR is coming through that tube!) and the snow wouldn't have a lot of purchase on the AvyLung mouthpiece to rip it out.
Well I also got to thinking about this 2 seasons back, had a couple of panicky moments in deep pow - just having a nice sweet little fall, but choking and panicking and gasping for air - that snow is CHOKING DUST! - I begin to see BD's point.
Apparently one of the top reasons people die in avalanches, starting way before they actually come to rest, is that the air is unbreathable - full of snow.
I think the ABS sacks are cool, would be interesting to know if they really work.
Begging the question: how does one test it :-)
Apparently BD has 'evidence' that thing has saved lives.
I've actually toyed with the idea of trying it in a kayak. Should be doable (though the air in the boat would probably taste/smell like that on Das Boot :-))
Well the bottom line is the most important piece of avy gear is between your ears.
A great line I recall seeing a couple years back in a Couloir article went like this,
"if the group is standing at the top of a sketchy slope discussing a line vis-a-vis avy danger, suggest everyone turn off their beepers, and then run the line. If anyone hesitates: don't run it..."
Note of reality to that one
wishing you great lines
GV

I' m not sure you are getting everything in perspective here. At least as I understand it. I could be wrong.

But first, Dust/Powder avalanches move at about 200km/h if you are hit by one of these its pretty much over anyway.

The slides that tend to cause fatalities are snowboard releases and move considerably slower. There was a huge one in a place I was riding about six weeks ago. A speed flyer overhead who followed the avalanche down reckoned it was going about the same speed as him (80km/h). Still fast but not 200km/h. This difference might be enough to get to safe ground if you realised what was happening soon enough.

As for the avalung, there is no way it can work in water. All it does is allows you to take air out from between the snow particles. In water there is no air between the particles. Even in white water I think you would be getting too much water through the filter to allow you to breath.

If Black Diamond have figures to show how good the avalung works then you can be damn sure they would publish them. The figures for the ABS rucksack look bloody impressive, but all the data that I have heard about on the Avalung seems to be theory rather then hard data.

I'm with Patxi in that the best thing to do is try to avoid going down in the slide in the first place. Failing that try to get out of the way, failing that try to do everything you can to stay on top. If you get buried, avalung or no avalung you better pray that your budies know how to use their transcievers and get you out in a hurry.

In practical terms if Black Diamond recomend that you put the avalung in your mouth whenever you are in exposed areas then you would be keeping it in your mouth from the moment you leave the marked runs to the moment you get back to the car or the bottom of the lift.

This is just my opinion, you need to make your own mind up but I would be interested to see some cold hard facts that the Avalung really does work. If I thought it did I would go out and buy one in a heartbeat.

not particularly answering YOUR post, still getting the hang of this page.
Anyway, I mentioned this:
http://www.andermatt.ch/de/bergbahne...gscenter-m531/
Wow, another one is right here in Flumserberg!
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a
Davos...
http://www.sac-davos.ch/index.taf?id...li_ic=&cli_ec=
AH! here's the master list:
http://www.mammut.ch/avalancherescue...afety_atc.html

Powderdreamz...

Avalung Survival Story

no, I mean putting the AvyLung in the boat...there be air in there...
;-)
Just a wack-o thought I've had for a couple of years, probably wouldn't work (but I always thought...if the going get tough, if that thing buys you another lungfull or two...)

"In practical terms if Black Diamond recomend that you put the avalung in your mouth whenever you are in exposed areas then you would be keeping it in your mouth from the moment you leave the marked runs to the moment you get back to the car or the bottom of the lift."

I assume you're not really being serious with such a statement. There is a very wide spectrum of terrain, some of which is quite obviously prone to avy-activity, and some of which is pretty much always safe (because of where the route goes with relation to what can slide and how far it can slide)
Powderdreamz..

I know of people using small pony bottles of air for this purpose when surfing big waves. Hold down is the worst feeling in the world I understand this feeling. I've had the unhappy experience of being caught in a few stoppers kayaking too. Some sort of a tube going under your spray deck might not be a bad idea in this situation. Of course if you pull the deck then your air pocket is compromised.

I'm only being partially tongue in cheek about that. Yes there are areas that are lower risk, and areas that there are higher risk, but if you want none at all then you need to wait for summer.

If you are crossing a 40 degree slope when the avalanche risk is three then it is clear that the risk is higher then dropping into a 30 degree slope when the risk is 2. Personally I would rather plan a route that does not put me crossing a 40 degree slope in avalanche risk 3 rather then have to hope that a piece of equipment which I am unsure of will work or not.

Slopes can avalanche anytime. Saturday we saw a slope of about <35deg that avalanched in risk level 2 at 10 am in the morning. We knew there was a risk for wet snow avalanches but this one went really early in the day. I reckon if someone had been riding that slope they would have felt it was ok, and not thought about putting an avalung in(if they had one) before dropping in.

My personal strategy is to be a pussy. I keep most of my back country stuff to risk level 2, or really flat slopes if it is risk level 3. I would not like to have to trust the avalung.

The avalung site has 5 reports where they claim that the Avalung helped save a life. Some of the stories sound compelling, but I am not sure that the device had no more effect then if you give a person who is hyperventilating a paper bag.

I know I am being cynical, and possibly playing devils advocate, but I think this is an interesting debate.

great one. I knew I'd seen at least a couple testimonials floating around but I haven't been actively reading that kind of material since just after the Lung came out.
But yeah, it clearly works ('works' meaning people who have told stories like this probably would not have made it out if they didn't have the device)

That one is on the avalung site too under accidents.

http://www.avalung.com/flash/avalung.html

It's one of those things. I'm pretty sure that if I stuff another car or a bridge pier with my Golf and live, it will be 21st century FE programs (and powerful workstations) that have enabled incredibly crash-proof cars to be built plus airbags...that would probably save my life, whereas in a 1975 Golf I'd be toast.
I'd love to be able to test one of these things (AvyLung or the airbag backpacks, whatever they're called) with the option to get out of it if it didn't work.
Hmm, that dodn't sound that logical..

Geez man, I'm pretty much going to go out and buy one, after reading THAT stuff.
I was talking to a buddy the other day, they made him wear a balloon-pack on a (guided) tour. Kinda heavy (5kgs) but I was like, so what? Especially during a winter like THIS one...
I do recall reading an account by someone (again, either in Couloir or Backcountry a couple years back) who was Right on The Edge, they may even have been resuced blacked out...and they were like, they'd be ready to haul a g-d SCUBA tank so as not have to go through that again..
At the moment I've got some people asking me to tour and I'm like, I really need to go do some beeper practise 'cause I haven't done that in like 2 seasons.

I'm really sorry, I confess: I've been checking the incoming email while watching this thread...
oh geez...
really, really sorry. No, really.

g'night...

Sounds totally logical. You are saying what I am thinking. You'd like to be able to know for sure that it worked without having to take the risk of finding out!

I just found this article which supports the fact that the Avalung might increase your survival time under the snow. However it does give the disclaimer that

This article is similar to the previous one and to a certain extent supports the theory that an Avalung might increase survival time. But... the interesting thing is that it does not actually support the claim from Avalung that it takes air out of the snowpack. Taking these two articles together and in context it looks like if the avalung does work it probably does so by seperating the carbon dioxide from the area you are breathing in your oxygen rather then actually taking oxygen out of the snowpack.

This article mentions the Avalung too but says while it says this about the ABS rucksack Here is the patent information for the Avalung.

This stuff does seem to support an avalung being of some use in ideal conditions. In real life there are many other things to consider. I don't think the idea of putting it in your mouth in dangerous areas is 100% realistic, and I am not sure it would be the first thing I would think of doing if I felt the earth slide, but I am going to look into it a little more.

Having said that, I'd buy an ABS rucksack in a flash if they didn't cost 1000CHF. If I save enough I might try to get one for next season, can't afford it this year though.

Hi guys,

Looks like I missed a bit last night after logging out. Interesting discussion and thanks for the links

From my point of view, the guide we were with was saying that an ABS rucksack is definitely better than an AvaLung. However, when taking into account cost he was saying that having an AvaLung is better than having neither, and he would therefore recommend them for those people doing off-piste at weekends/on holidays, whilst an ABS pack was sensible for the professionals.

I'm certainly not a big risk-taker, but I think the comment about having to put the AvaLung in your mouth from the moment you step off-piste is a little over the top. Of course there are times when slopes go that you really wouldn't expect, but an avalanche risk assessment is always going to be about reducing the risk to a level which you personally are comfortable with rather than completely eliminating risk. If you really want to eliminate all risk, don't go skiing... After all people get killed on-piste by avalanches too from time to time.

Whenever you are off-piste, there are some slopes which you can see are more likely to avalanche than others, and if you want to go across them then I guess that would be the time to check that you know where the breathing tube is. For me, when it is proper back-country stuff, that's when I'd personally want to be with a guide who had an ABS pack so that the best trained person around was the one that made it out of the avalanche and was able to dig me out...

Yea the discussion is a good thing, it certainly led to me learning some stuff last night. Having slept on it, despite still having some reservations of the practicality of the device, I am starting to think about buying one.