Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief - Page 5

J.Marple · #81 30.03.2012, 17:20

	Quote:	latigresse
	Lack of chemistry or personality clashes can happen to anyone, anywhere, even between those of the same nationality What gives one a heightened sensitivity or perhaps an added dimension of xenophobia is when the lack of chemistry/clash happens in another country (like here) and the individual is another nationality (either a native of said foreign country or some other country) and, when they've run out of arguments and have nothing left to hit you with, they resort to telling you to "go back to your own country."

Exactly what I meant (but you explained it better

).

I didn't take it as racism, because I really think it wasn't. She was losing the argument and that was what she thought would hurt me the most. By the way, it didn't, it made for a good laugh later.

I'm just wondering if they are more cases like this, that are peceived as racist but are nothing more than clash of personalities.

Bucentaure · #82 30.03.2012, 17:24

	Quote:	Captain Greybeard
	Not true. It's my profession, and I know the statistics. That professor, who is an old friend and colleague of mine, is 100% right. All in all the Swiss have better teeth than the Germans because they have to pay for treatment, hence they take better care of them. It's very simple. ...

Apart that my above commentary was not meant to be so serious (that's why I put a smiley),

I don't think you are right.

I know many Germans who are shocked about medical standard in Switzerland and about Swiss corny teeth ...

	Quote:	Captain Greybeard
	... Now, can we go back to the topic please? My previous post was about freedom of speech and alleged racism, and tooth decay was just a practical example.

Whatever, my point was that you cannot deduct from a certain phenomenon, even if there seems to be some kind of correlation, a clear reason that is linked to differences in behavior, mentality, race or whatever.

So in the silly dental care thing.

	Quote:	J.Marple
	... My point is, I don't think people are being xenophobic because they dislike me. ...

I think you have a point there, as the addressee of a mean commentary is maybe thought to be somehow sensitive on the "foreigner's status",

people tend to be mean using the xenophobic button also if they aren't xenophobic at all.

latigresse · #83 30.03.2012, 17:33

	Quote:	Fridge
	edit: I should qualify - "here" is meant as the German speaking region as I've spent very little time in the French, Italian or ancient-roman-babble areas.

Actually, this is my perception as well: that the anti-foreigner sentiment is more prevalent and that this sort of behavior happens more in the German-speaking part (this side of the Rösti Graben) than in the Romandie or in Ticino.

Even the Masseneinwanderung referendum, I believe, has garnered higher support in the German regions of the country.

Just a small example, I speak French. Whenever I visit the Romandie, I communicate exclusively in French -- in the shops, restaurants, etc. I understand the locals and they understand me. No problems there.

Here, in Zurich, however, the language frustrates me to no end. I studied and speak (decent) Hochdeutsch, and it's still a work in progress. But many of the locals I have encountered do not want to speak Hochdeutsch, even though it's clear I don't understand their dialect. (I've also tried speaking French -- in an effort to stick with a national language -- but apart from the older generations of Swiss people, nobody wants to speak French. They'd rather speak English.) Some people have told me outright that they hate Germans and would rather speak English than Hochdeutsch.

Also, the same former co-workers who ridiculed my Yugoslavian co-worker harassed me because I don't speak Schwyzerdeutsch, and how dare I live in this country and NOT speak Schwyzerdeutsch. They even flat out refused to speak Hochdeutsch with me and told me that they would ONLY speak Schwyzerdeutsch.

WTF???

English, BTW, was our business language, and I didn't mind making the effort to try to communicate in German as much as possible. But it was not the "right" German, apparently. Working with these people was very difficult because of their attitudes, to say the least. I moved on to another company and now work with a team comprised entirely of foreigners.

I know this all may be painful to read (it's been painful to experience as well) and I am sorry to, again, relate a negative experience, but it is what it is.

Phos · #84 30.03.2012, 18:11

	Quote:	Fridge
	It's a sad representation of what is hopefully the minority, but when you hear it -and I've heard this same story many, many times- you can't help but think how many more are thinking just that and just haven't spoken up, yet. You can't possibly blame people for disliking, and eventually rejecting, such blatantly venomous people! So, what happens? you end up with segregation and foreign sub cultures. The immigrants stick to themselves as they're sick of being preemptively accused of being scum, and the Swiss complain that the foreigners don't integrate - self fulfilling prophesy much?

Thats how ghettos are formed. But ghettos are not without its own group mind dynamics. They tend to reinforce their own perception of reality, and create a vicious circle where they will pull each other back into it - the crabs in a bucket syndrome. But this is all so unnecessary, even here in Switzerland.

Some would like to think they are helpless and hopeless in the situation, and the only way over it is to be carried out by some sort of collective action, by some movement or some legislation to social engineer society to their favor. But in doing so, they are buying into the helpless and hopeless mindset, and are giving up their personal responsibility.

I understand taking personal responsibility for oneself can be daunting and difficult. But there is plenty of freedom in taking it up. If someone feels they need some sort of collective action to fix their situation, I won't try to stop you from trying. All I would say is there is a simpler, less costlier, and more immediate way to attain the same thing. I doubt you will be able to re-engineer Swiss society, and I certainly will not be joining any such ghetto.

Fridge · #85 30.03.2012, 18:41

	Quote:	Phos
	Thats how ghettos are formed. But ghettos are not without its own group mind dynamics. They tend to reinforce their own perception of reality, and create a vicious circle where they will pull each other back into it - the crabs in a bucket syndrome. But this is all so unnecessary, even here in Switzerland. Some would like to think they are helpless and hopeless in the situation, and the only way over it is to be carried out by some sort of collective action, by some movement or some legislation to social engineer society to their favor. But in doing so, they are buying into the helpless and hopeless mindset, and are giving up their personal responsibility. I understand taking personal responsibility for oneself can be daunting and difficult. But there is plenty of freedom in taking it up. If someone feels they need some sort of collective action to fix their situation, I won't try to stop you from trying. All I would say is there is a simpler, less costlier, and more immediate way to attain the same thing. I doubt you will be able to re-engineer Swiss society, and I certainly will not be joining any such ghetto.

I don't disagree with you.

The problem is that oneself plays little role if you're deemed sub-human from the beginning!

Bad news though, you already have joined the "ghetto" - welcome to EF!

Phos · #86 30.03.2012, 19:04

	Quote:	Fridge
	I don't disagree with you. The problem is that oneself plays little role if you're deemed sub-human from the beginning! Bad news though, you already have joined the "ghetto" - welcome to EF!

It doesn't matter to me what they deem, what matters to me is what I deem. But as for the EF ghetto, thanks mam, but I'm just visiting.

That's my exit. Good luck!

Mott · #87 30.03.2012, 19:25

	Quote:	Oliver Jones
	Countries like Britain have been destroyed forever by unrestricted immigration (and multiculturalism, in particular), and they will never ever recover from this. [...] and today, many people see it as their God-given right to live wherever they please - regardless of ability, work ethic, criminal record or willingness to fit in!

See what the English did with Australia and its native inhabitants...

ProsperityJoy · #88 30.03.2012, 19:41

	Quote:	Oliver Jones
	I do not find Switzerland racist at all. I'm amazed at how many people of French, German, Italian (and many other extractions) get on together in one place. It's quite clearly not about race: It's about culture. Switzerland is guilty only of standing up for its culture - something most EU states have tried to repress (the general belief being that culture is a national thing - and as far as the EU is concerned, nationalism, democracy and culture all belong in the same rubbish bin.) Few people stand up for culture in the EU these days (Geert Wilders and Nigel Farage being two notable exceptions) - because to do so is to risk being attacked as racist, or even fascist! Sometimes, the attacks even amount to assassinations - as Theo van Gogh would no doubt attest - if he were still alive to talk about the experience, that is. I won't comment on democracy, but suffice it to say that the average EU state is very, very different to Switzerland in this regard. Countries like Britain have been destroyed forever by unrestricted immigration (and multiculturalism, in particular), and they will never ever recover from this. The sad thing was that Britain was always open to many races, provided that immigrants made an effort to fit in - with many generations of Indians having been allowed to work and live in the UK since the year dot, because these people had something valuable to offer. Britain used to be very selective with regard to the people it allowed in - if you had useful skills to offer the nation, you were allowed in. Race didn't matter then - and it still doesn't matter, today. But culture has been ignored, with disastrous consequences! As if that wasn't bad enough, the very idea of citizenship has been vastly cheapened - and today, many people see it as their God-given right to live wherever they please - regardless of ability, work ethic, criminal record or willingness to fit in! Those early immigrants were very honoured to fit in with British culture, and made a point of learning English, spurring their kids on to excel at school - and leaving their cultural past behind them. Many Indian kids were very good at school, possessed excellent business acumen - and often ended up working for themselves. Such people were slightly disparaged for being "over-achievers", but they simply took their work ethic and applied it in a British context. Many became big success stories - and that success was self-made; it wasn't the result of state molly-coddling or socialism. They knew they had been given a huge privilege in the form of British citizenship (because it wasn't just given to everyone and anyone) - and they worked hard to show that they deserved the chance they had been given. There was a concept of obligation. Sadly, these days, this is largely absent: Many immigrants do not feel obliged to excel, even for their own sake. Unfortunately, immigrants are now encouraged to bring their culture with them - and it's the native who is expected to adapt! This flies in the face of any cultural standard - and any who disagree with this policy are automatically labelled "racist" or "xenophobic" - despite the fact that good management of immigration policy has absolutely nothing to do with race or fear of outsiders. This is wrong on so many levels, and it cannot possibly work in the long term. The result in Britain is clear to see: Many cities (particularly the likes of Bradford) are no-go areas, occupied by gangs so vicious that even the police steer clear of the area. Crime goes unpunished, drug abuse is rife, and society has broken down. This then encourages law-abiding people to move (often the biggest contributors leave first, and many simply emigrate) - impoverishing the area (or country) - and condemning it to long-term decline. The bottom line is this: Any responsible sovereign state must put its own people first. Immigration is a real problem if not managed properly, and it is not racism (or xenophobia) to point out that unfettered immigration poses a threat to the culture and living standard of everyone living in Switzerland - including the immigrants. This topic must be open for debate.

Beautiful post...your consensus is quite accurate as well. A part of Britain is called Londonistan due to their uncontrolled immigration. Its turning into a hellhole and they don't know what to do about it.
Many are jealous of Switzerland. They've held to their sovereignty, and they are doing dam well. Because of this they want to find a way to get Switzerland to join in the demise... "now it is Switzerland's turn, let us turn Switzerland into a hellhole like we've done our countries, how dare they do so well."
Switzerland must stand their ground. This is imperative. Once they start to become politically correct and try to appease those who have only selfish agendas, Switzerland will be in trouble.
I compare it to someone's home. In someone's home the door is not open for "anyone" who wants to walk through, and not just anyone can have a key either. A country has to be careful about who they open their doors to. Just because they knock it does not mean they should be allowed to come in. Is a person being racist because everyone can't have a key to their home, or everyone who knocks on the door is not let in?
Besides "racism" is an American construct. America has always been deemed as a trend setter, and racism is no different.

crazygringo · #89 30.03.2012, 21:37

	Quote:	ProsperityJoy
	Beautiful post...your consensus is quite accurate as well. A part of Britain is called Londonistan due to their uncontrolled immigration. Its turning into a hellhole and they don't know what to do about it. Many are jealous of Switzerland. They've held to their sovereignty, and they are doing dam well. Because of this they want to find a way to get Switzerland to join in the demise... "now it is Switzerland's turn, let us turn Switzerland into a hellhole like we've done our countries, how dare they do so well." Switzerland must stand their ground. This is imperative. Once they start to become politically correct and try to appease those who have only selfish agendas, Switzerland will be in trouble. I compare it to someone's home. In someone's home the door is not open for "anyone" who wants to walk through, and not just anyone can have a key either. A country has to be careful about who they open their doors to. Just because they knock it does not mean they should be allowed to come in. Is a person being racist because everyone can't have a key to their home, or everyone who knocks on the door is not let in? Besides "racism" is an American construct. America has always been deemed as a trend setter, and racism is no different.

gnau wie es sii sott, with the anti-American tangent, which seems to be a constant with your posts.

there is, of course, a fair amount of truth to what you're posting, at least as regards Switzerland. this wonderful and idyllic country has no obligation to open its borders to anybody who is not Swiss. I have nothing but admiration for the way the country has generally worked to maintain its sense of identity and "culture", despite all of the various headwinds that would work against it. the flip side, however, is that - whether we like it or not (and I am still on the fence) - we live in an increasingly "global" world. and you may not like to admit it, but the vast majority of the Swiss economy - the part that does not remain a self-subsidized and agrarian duopoly - relies almost entirely on that "global" economy in terms of jobs and capital. it does not mean the country has to permit its borders to be flooded with asylum-seekers, but it probably does mean that a shuffle toward a middle-ground might be required.

as to the EU, the fun is just getting started. the countries like Italy and Spain who are being squeezed the most by sharing a currency with Germany, et al. are just now awakening to the fact that hundreds of billions of revenue that is earned within their borders is being taxed in Zug, Geneva or Zurich.

st2lemans · #90 30.03.2012, 21:52

	Quote:	latigresse
	Actually, this is my perception as well: that the anti-foreigner sentiment is more prevalent and that this sort of behavior happens more in the German-speaking part (this side of the Rösti Graben) than in the Romandie or in Ticino. Even the Masseneinwanderung referendum, I believe, has garnered higher support in the German regions of the country. Just a small example, I speak French. Whenever I visit the Romandie, I communicate exclusively in French -- in the shops, restaurants, etc. I understand the locals and they understand me. No problems there. Here, in Zurich, however, the language frustrates me to no end. I studied and speak (decent) Hochdeutsch, and it's still a work in progress. But many of the locals I have encountered do not want to speak Hochdeutsch, even though it's clear I don't understand their dialect. (I've also tried speaking French -- in an effort to stick with a national language -- but apart from the older generations of Swiss people, nobody wants to speak French. They'd rather speak English.) Some people have told me outright that they hate Germans and would rather speak English than Hochdeutsch. Also, the same former co-workers who ridiculed my Yugoslavian co-worker harassed me because I don't speak Schwyzerdeutsch, and how dare I live in this country and NOT speak Schwyzerdeutsch. They even flat out refused to speak Hochdeutsch with me and told me that they would ONLY speak Schwyzerdeutsch. WTF??? English, BTW, was our business language, and I didn't mind making the effort to try to communicate in German as much as possible. But it was not the "right" German, apparently. Working with these people was very difficult because of their attitudes, to say the least. I moved on to another company and now work with a team comprised entirely of foreigners. I know this all may be painful to read (it's been painful to experience as well) and I am sorry to, again, relate a negative experience, but it is what it is.

Alas, I've never had that experience.

I have had "what shall we speak today, Zueiri, Bern, Schrift, or English", but all of those are fine by me.

And try as I might, I only get as far as "high-German with a Swiss accent"

(according to a former girlfriend), which I suppose is better than "perfect French with a fake American accent" according to another former girlfriend!

Tom

crazygringo · #91 30.03.2012, 22:02

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Alas, I've never had that experience. I have had "what shall we speak today, Zueiri, Bern, Schrift, or English", but all of those are fine by me. And try as I might, I only get as far as "high-German with a Swiss accent"(according to a former girlfriend), which I suppose is better than "perfect French with a fake American accent" according to another former girlfriend! Tom

you better hold on to your wife, then, lest she criticize your Italian accent.

poptart · #92 31.03.2012, 01:15

	Quote:	latigresse
	I know this all may be painful to read (it's been painful to experience as well) and I am sorry to, again, relate a negative experience, but it is what it is.

It is painful as it reminds me of the most personally humiliating experience I ever had...I was walking my dog in the 'posh' section of Helsinki, the Finns will know it by the number of Swedish speaking mink coated old ladies, one of whom decided to pet my dog and start talking to me in rapid-fire Finnish which I didn't understand at all since I had only been there for a week at that point. When she finally stopped long enough to get a word in edgewise, I rather shyly said that I didn't speak Finnish...at which point she spat on me and walked off. Yes...spat on me. A mink coated older lady with all the trappings of very unusual wealth in Finland no less. I still love Finland and wish that things were different, that as someone not born in Finland, but who is reasonably fluent in the language at this point to manage fairly well, could live a life on equal footing as an integrated immigrant but with the Timo Soini crowd that isn't likely to happen. It's hard to forget such hatred and humiliation for nothing more than being born outside of a political boundary.

Europe has an abundance of old folks, old folks who still live like it's us vs everyone else. Unfortunately, they pass their fear and hatred onto the young.

Bucentaure · #93 31.03.2012, 07:37

	Quote:	ProsperityJoy
	Beautiful post...your consensus is quite accurate as well. A part of Britain is called Londonistan due to their uncontrolled immigration. Its turning into a hellhole and they don't know what to do about it.

	Quote:	ProsperityJoy
	...

As some senior member stated in another thread (and she's absolutely right in this), you cannot really compare London to Switzerland.

Imo the fact that GB has to face some problems (what are bigger than those of the rest of EU) is not due to the foreigners that would have taken over the country, but due to Mrs Thatcher and her lakai Mr Major who ruined public institutions, who had a little too much time to do real harm to the country.

	Quote:	ProsperityJoy
	... Many are jealous of Switzerland. They've held to their sovereignty, and they are doing dam well. Because of this they want to find a way to get Switzerland to join in the demise... "now it is Switzerland's turn, let us turn Switzerland into a hellhole like we've done our countries, how dare they do so well." Switzerland must stand their ground. This is imperative. Once they start to become politically correct and try to appease those who have only selfish agendas, Switzerland will be in trouble. ...

What is this thing about Switzerland that makes many foreigners or even immigrants think or that Switzerland is a paradise where everything has a scent of chocolate, cheese and money or that it is hell where foreigners are treated like in Saudi Arabia.

Maybe CH is just a normal country that did a certain amount of good things, other things however do not work so fine.

	Quote:	ProsperityJoy
	... I compare it to someone's home. In someone's home the door is not open for "anyone" who wants to walk through, and not just anyone can have a key either. A country has to be careful about who they open their doors to. Just because they knock it does not mean they should be allowed to come in. Is a person being racist because everyone can't have a key to their home, or everyone who knocks on the door is not let in? ...

No, there's no analogy between the two items "State/institution" and "home". In my home I don't make my guests pay for anything, and they and I have not to care about society at all at my home.

Foreigners in Switzerland are not offered free gifts, but they have to earn their money and pay and take social standards as they are like everybody else.

little_isabella · #94 31.03.2012, 07:44

	Quote:	Oliver Jones
	If you let it bother you (and from the emotional tone of your argument, you have), you will only attract more people like the ones you fear.

Are you suggesting apathy then? If everyone throughout history displayed apathy to racism, it might just be that the next cab you tried to attract wouldn't have taken you either. ;p

greenmount · #95 31.03.2012, 08:17

	Quote:	latigresse
	I honestly don't think it's a matter of self-confidence, or lack thereof. I know people who've been here for a very long time (decades), and while they've done (I think) a bang-up job at integrating (e.g., learning the language, making local friends, adopting the local work ethic, customs, etc.) they still get blindsided every now and then by people who they thought they could trust and, otherwise, wouldn't have a problem with. Case in point: I have a former co-worker who immigrated here from Yugoslavia when she was in her early 20s (she is now in her early 60s). She speaks German and Swiss-German fluently, owns a house here, tends her garden religiously, is very "Swiss" in many respects and LOVES this country to bits. When she decided to apply for Swiss citizenship a few years ago, she shared her news with her Swiss co-workers, and instead of being happy for her, they chided her. One woman said, "How dare you think you're even good enough to be Swiss! What makes you think you even have the right to apply for or deserve a Swisspass? Well, it doesn't matter what kind of passport you have; we will NEVER accept you because you're a Yugo!" Another co-worker said to her, "too bad there aren't more politicians like Blocher to get rid of people like you." All of this hurt her deeply because she worked very closely with these people for years and also socialized with them fairly regularly. She got her passport, but she said she can never get past their hateful words to her. And for what? All because of their own prejudices. She is a decent, hardworking person, not a criminal or a low-life. These same women told another colleague, German guy, when he got his Schweizerpass something to the effect of "Looks like they're giving out citizenship to just anybody now when they should be more careful, since all Germans are shit." I have another friend here, a Swiss woman born to immigrant parents, and raised here, who was mobbed out of her last job. Why? Her colleagues didn't think she was Swiss enough and wanted to get rid of her. For me, personally, when I first came here, I was keen to integrate. Sure, I've learned the language (and am continuing with that), have many Swiss friends, have gotten to understand the political system, enjoy many aspects of life in this country, and so on. But now, that desire has diminished, because between the increased anti-foreigner sentiment (which I also understand, in part, and believe is fear-based more than anything) and seeing what happened to my co-worker and others who've related similar experiences to PantsFace, I no longer care whether I'm accepted or not or what people think. I live my life for my own benefit, not for others and just do what I need to to get by. And, frankly, that suits me fine.

Tigresse, we have to accept that many people are stupid, idiots, mentally disturbed, even though not in...papers, not diagnosed. What does your story tell me about those women? They are, most likely, very unhappy women, God knows about their childhood or whatever, who probably hate themselves as much as they hate everybody else, and especially those who seem to have done something with their lives. I wouldn't care about this non-sense. If I cared, I would fall into their trap, I would make them happy, because hurting others makes them feel good about themselves. Never underestimate your capacity of ignoring things..said someone.

If I were your colleague, I would rather cut all the socializing I had with the stupid farts, but then I would just forget they exists..

The more you try, the less you are likely to "integrate". Obey the rules because this is what you would do no matter the place of living, learn the languages because is useful and fun, and live your life for you and for those very few people close to you. Integration is a relative term, reading a survey in the Migros magazine I fould out than 5% of the Swiss who were questioned think that the foreigners are well integrated, about 40% think they are "about integrated", and the rest of them are not worth mentioning..

On the other hand I met what people would call well-integrated immigrants who were even less sympathetic toward the new immigrants. So, it is not always the Swiss, it is the way people are and it has a lot to do with their own misery. I's like on the internet: you have to ignore the trolls!

Busby · #96 31.03.2012, 08:17

	Quote:	lost_inbroad
	Again, my sentiments are, that Switzerland is stuck in the 70s because of its lack of international relevance possibly supported by its banking secrecy.

This isn't the first time that I've seen this reference to Switzerland being stuck in the 70s - maybe a couple of examples from the author(s) would help to explain...?

Something else: Switzerland must be at the top of the list for the 23% of foreign inhabitants, so we clearly have a different situation than other countries. So, whilst we are talking about Swiss attitudes to this problem is it not true that about 8 years ago we all said' no' to a proposed ceiling of 22%?

greenmount · #97 31.03.2012, 08:34

	Quote:	poptart
	It is painful as it reminds me of the most personally humiliating experience I ever had...I was walking my dog in the 'posh' section of Helsinki, the Finns will know it by the number of Swedish speaking mink coated old ladies, one of whom decided to pet my dog and start talking to me in rapid-fire Finnish which I didn't understand at all since I had only been there for a week at that point. When she finally stopped long enough to get a word in edgewise, I rather shyly said that I didn't speak Finnish...at which point she spat on me and walked off. Yes...spat on me. A mink coated older lady with all the trappings of very unusual wealth in Finland no less. I still love Finland and wish that things were different, that as someone not born in Finland, but who is reasonably fluent in the language at this point to manage fairly well, could live a life on equal footing as an integrated immigrant but with the Timo Soini crowd that isn't likely to happen. It's hard to forget such hatred and humiliation for nothing more than being born outside of a political boundary. Europe has an abundance of old folks, old folks who still live like it's us vs everyone else. Unfortunately, they pass their fear and hatred onto the young.

Europe has an abundance of young folks who are even worse than the old people. You probably have never encountered a gang of Swiss teenagers shouting at you to get out of their country...Last survey I read about integration in Switzerland showed that the most interested persons in answering the questions re. integration of foreigners were people between 16-24 years of age. The results being unfavourable to foreigners make me think that actually, the young lads are even more xenophobic than their grannies, a thing confirmed by my own experiences. Don't think about young as in a young students, or people related to academics, the pool is much larger. They have a sense of entitlement which has been cultivated by the parents, out of their own frustrations (what I didn't have my child should have), and as the kids are the new investments of today society. They hear conversations at home but they don't have a filter for their own and rather take everything literally.

ProsperityJoy · #98 31.03.2012, 08:34

	Quote:	Bucentaure
	As some senior member stated in another thread (and she's absolutely right in this), you cannot really compare London to Switzerland. Imo the fact that GB has to face some problems (what are bigger than those of the rest of EU) is not due to the foreigners that would have taken over the country, but due to Mrs Thatcher and her lakai Mr Major who ruined public institutions, who had a little too much time to do real harm to the country. What is this thing about Switzerland that makes many foreigners or even immigrants think or that Switzerland is a paradise where everything has a scent of chocolate, cheese and money or that it is hell where foreigners are treated like in Saudi Arabia. Maybe CH is just a normal country that did a certain amount of good things, other things however do not work so fine. No, there's no analogy between the two items "State/institution" and "home". In my home I don't make my guests pay for anything, and they and I have not to care about society at all at my home. Foreigners in Switzerland are not offered free gifts, but they have to earn their money and pay and take social standards as they are like everybody else.

Sorry...but the foreigners HAVE taken over the country...ie England. It has gotten totally out of control. Even recently they stated that "they are going to curb integration and let it only those able to work...blah...blah...blah...a bit too late though. Read up on Londinistan. It isn't that a country should not allow integration, but they must be careful who they let in. GB had no discretion and now they have a welfare state.

No place is perfect, but whatever Switzerland is doing, it is working and they don't need a bunch of outsiders trying to tell them how to spoil it.

You took the analogy waaaaay out of context. It is not about free or not free. The idea is that a country has a right to refuse to not let people inside their borders i.e. home, just as an individual has a right not to let someone in their home. Is your home open to anyone who wants to come in? Do you give everybody a key? You have to use discretion.

The comparison to GB is for wisdom purposes only: Switzerland does not need to make the same immigration mistakes that GB has. It is a catastrophe and a bit too little too late.

It's as if the critics want to say: "Come on Switzerland, really...it doesn't hurt too bad. See we ruined our countries, but look, we are getting through it and you can do the same. Now come on and turn Switzerland into a welfare state, hellhole, believe us the process is not so painful...lol"

Switzerland must stand their ground...

ProsperityJoy · #99 31.03.2012, 08:41

	Quote:	poptart
	It is painful as it reminds me of the most personally humiliating experience I ever had...I was walking my dog in the 'posh' section of Helsinki, the Finns will know it by the number of Swedish speaking mink coated old ladies, one of whom decided to pet my dog and start talking to me in rapid-fire Finnish which I didn't understand at all since I had only been there for a week at that point. When she finally stopped long enough to get a word in edgewise, I rather shyly said that I didn't speak Finnish...at which point she spat on me and walked off. Yes...spat on me. A mink coated older lady with all the trappings of very unusual wealth in Finland no less. I still love Finland and wish that things were different, that as someone not born in Finland, but who is reasonably fluent in the language at this point to manage fairly well, could live a life on equal footing as an integrated immigrant but with the Timo Soini crowd that isn't likely to happen. It's hard to forget such hatred and humiliation for nothing more than being born outside of a political boundary. Europe has an abundance of old folks, old folks who still live like it's us vs everyone else. Unfortunately, they pass their fear and hatred onto the young.

Old people have lived life and they have seen the ups and downs through experience...maybe people can learn from them as well?...

latigresse · #**100** 31.03.2012, 08:55

	Quote:	poptart
	It is painful as it reminds me of the most personally humiliating experience I ever had...I was walking my dog in the 'posh' section of Helsinki, the Finns will know it by the number of Swedish speaking mink coated old ladies, one of whom decided to pet my dog and start talking to me in rapid-fire Finnish which I didn't understand at all since I had only been there for a week at that point.

WTH are all these posh Swedish women doing in Helsinki? I'm surprised they even bothered to leave Östermalm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96stermalm

Just goes to show that money doesn't buy open-mindedness and enlightenment. Even the upper classes aren't immune from xenophobia and intolerance.

[QUOTE=poptart;1527607Europe has an abundance of old folks, old folks who still live like it's us vs everyone else. Unfortunately, they pass their fear and hatred onto the young.[/QUOTE]

I have no doubts about what you're saying, and would agree it's a problem, but, interestingly, most of the old folks I've met here have been some of the nicest people anywhere. Somehow they've come across as more open-minded, more cosmopolitan and more tolerant of foreigners than many (but not all) of the younger people I've met.

Of course, I haven't spent much time in the small towns further away from greater Zurich, so it could be an entirely different story elsewhere.