Regardless of the approach, and the fact that drama and emotion do not bring anything to the table, milk really does need to be subsidised.

Milk not only needs to be subsidised to support local farmers but also to support Swiss industry.

If it is not, then all products made from Swiss milk become more expensive to make and thus less competitive.

Nope..it's positive discrimination

Growth hormones have been forbidden in the EU for several years now, and probably aslo in Switzerland.

Don't forget that farming is not a "business" per say...It's a culture. You will very rarely-if at all- see a farmer riding around in a porsche or Lexus. The work is from the Soul of the farmer. Once the esthetics disappear and "big business" takes over we'll have nothing left but "Frankenstein Food". Farming is done with love, and big business wants to take the love out of it. When Nestle contracts a farmer to farm their cocoa for instance, the farmer has to play by their rules, which means they can be forced to use GMO wheat for example.. Instead of the other way around that Nestle buys from this farmer because they grow the best cocoa. (I'm only using Nestle as an example, I don't know if they do this or not) But big businesses are trying to take over farming. When a conglomeration of small businesses turn into one big business the problems start. Its a tough call, how do we feed billions of people? Farmers are under tantamount pressure to grow food, if we can still call it that.

Not necessarily. If Swiss chocolate / dairy / manufactured food producers are forced to buy more expensive Swiss milk rather than a cheaper import, it might make their products less competitive than companies that can source milk anywhere in the world. Is Swiss chocolate still Swiss chocolate if made from non-Swiss milk? I don't know, but cocoa sure doesn't grow in Switzerland....Alternately maybe the subsidies do indeed make the milk "cheap", but then this is at the cost of taxes paid by everyone in Switzerland. It is a forced transfer of wealth transfer to dairy farmers and companies who buy milk.

In any case, the debate isn't as simple as "subsidise farmers or we'll have no farmers at all", and this is not a purely academic debate. The best example of a first world country quitting farm subsidies cold turkey is New Zealand, a country whose farms are an awful long container-ship ride from anywhere:

http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/f...ubsidies.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...nt/3747430.stm

According to the first source the proportion of farmers leaving the industry was very small, and farmers have diversified their sources of income since subsidies were dropped. If this whole "Swiss cows + green fields = tourism" is indeed true, then that should be possible here too.

Even in the USA it seems some farms get subsidies (corn, cotton, sugar) and other types of agriculture get by without them (salad vegetables, most fruits). Thus I think if subsidies were dropped or greatly reduced there would still be some farming in Switzerland, although the products, mix and marketing would change.

Personally I am against subsidies on moral grounds, but I think for political reasons they'll be with us for a while. So if they have to exist they should be implemented in a harm-reducing way. So, no volume based subsidies, no shutting out of imports, probably just a flat payment per farm household based on some sort of means test (i.e. no payments to ADM or Queen Elizabeth II's hobby farm) would be the way to go. Possibly with the choice of a lump sum for leaving the industry, which I think was also offered in NZ.

Oh yes you do. In America at least, where the farm subsidies pay for corporate farms to buy out the land of family farms. I could enter a Thomas Jefferson quote here, but its worthless.

What make are they? Possibly Holsteins which were also imported as a good milk/beef animal?

According to my breed book the Swiss Brown is the only native Swiss dairy cow possibly dating from as long ago as 4000 BC and documented in a breeding programme at Einsiedeln in the 11th century. Most breed historians agree that the Swiss Brown is the oldest milking cow.

Interestingly enough, next door we have Belted Galloways which are black and white but as the name suggests they are black with a white belt. Really pretty.

There are many bankrupt farmers that would disagree with you. Farming most certainly is a business per se.

Thats what I meant by "taking the love out of farming"...re-read my post..

Of course its a business, but out of all businesses a farmer has to really "love" what he does. Its like growing a plant. Now that big businesses want to take over farming the "love and esthetics" will be taken out and we have "frankenstein food". That is why organic food is growing in popularity, the love is still combined with growing the food. Its nurtured. If you let big businesses have their way the "traditional farmer" is on his (or her) way out. Then potatoes aren't potatoes anymore. They'll be a conglomeration of chemicals and fillers...

do you have any farming experience?

Dude, I have a farm with a villa, 4 star spa, and all the equipment. I've mastered cranberries, grapes, wheat and a whole bunch of others. I even own a border collie. And a japanese garden.

We've chosen to live outside the city, and I'm thankful for the farms all around us. I live in a fairly dense community surrounded on three sides by farms and behind us is a forest. I love that it gives us a lot of open space. If that's the consequence of subsidizing farmers, then I have to say that I appreciate it.

The farmers that are right next to our building seem to work hard. They are up early, moving cows and horses into different fields, and they are often moving them late in the day too. They don't seem to have a luxurious life style either...I feel like it's a luxury for us to be so close to the cows. I'm also thankful for the cow bells. But I don't think I could do a farmer's job for a nanosecond.

As for letting the free market set prices and all that - I'm not so convinced by the value of that - I look at the US where walmart has swallowed up small businesses and where small farms are not sustainable. Look at what deregulation has done to the airline industry. I'm sure some of you will disagree with me tho.

Of course, perhaps you won't be surprised to learn that I also believe in affirmative action.

... that's why most "green" party members live in the city.

I think farm subsidies can be justified to prevent the collapse of traditional ways of life in the country. Yes, change is inevitable and we can't preserve farms as museums, but the pace of change can be slowed.

There are also food security arguments, though these are questionable given Switzerland's complete dependence on her neighbours.

I can't really see how the SVP can support subsidies in one are but be such fervent advocates against state intervention elsewhere. Where are the cries of 'smaller government' now?

So you don't like the statistics, therefore they must have been 'massaged'? As stated, those are stats used by the Swiss government.
I quoted a difference of 10-20% percentage points. Looking at the stats again it is actually up to 24% points. Which means that e.g Swiss subsidies in 2006 exceeded EU subsidies by a factor of more than 1.5: 64% in CH vs. 39.4% in the EU.

I certainly don't want to spoil your breakfast (or lunch or dinner), but you do know that Switzerland imports more than 50% of all food consumed here, right ?

Farmers are the base constituents of the SVP. Turbulence in pricing is the reason for the subsidies. It's not like a class of leechers milking state coffers.

Why do you ask? Do you? Or rather "do you have anything you love to do"...

I'd guess it's because your glossy view of farmers and farming is a little naive .

No it's not naive. I'm just coming from a different level that you're not used to...and don't ask "what level" because you wouldn't understand. It's quite simple really. "Those who know, know, and those who don't...don't" try and figure it out...Geez...kindergartners...