Heretic! Yes. They're called "parents". (Bad luck if yours are into guilt - not quite sure if an excess of morals and righteousness is a bad thing though. Moralising and self-righteousness for sure, but excessive decency? Before you two fall out over this, I might add that my son didn't do religion classes, and is now a student at Basel university (Physics), and that his German teacher at Gymnasium did say that to properly understand much of German literature, a grasp of Christianity is very helpful. In fact, it's the same with English literature. If you don't have some understanding of Christian teaching, then you're missing a huge component of what makes up the classics.

My first teaching observation month in a primary school as part of my B.Ed: teachers had put on a show for all the parents for Diwali, as there was an increasing contingent of Hindu children. Wonderfully and sensitively done, avoiding the easy clichés - brilliant. Then the Head got up to close the evening- about 50% of parents there Hindu and other denominations. 'What a wonderful evening, she said, and now lets pray to the Good Lord Jesus who made such a lovely evening possible' followed by the Lords Prayer. I wanted to dig a big big hole and disappear. Worst thing, she was totally unaware.

A colleague of mine attended ETHZ for his PhD and upon arrival did not know a lick of German yet he somehow managed to successfully complete his and learn German without taking one religion class. Go figure.

First, religious studies here is an option, you can choose catholic, protestant, or none.

My (late) wife was very anti-catholic (for some good, personal reasons I won't go into), but felt that it would be good for our children to get some religious education, and so we said OK to protestant, despite neither of them ever being in the church (i.e. baptised).

When they got to secondary school, both asked to be relieved of further religious studies, and I agreed.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with VOLUNTARY study. I went to a catholic primary school, then went to further lessons of my volition for a further two years, and I don't regret it, it was interesting and informative.

So, as long as their is an opt-out, what's the problem?

Tom

Religion in general should be abolished - there is no God - just a misunderstanding of science and hallucinogenics, of times gone by.

The only reason it still exists as it does, is because there are still those who require an external prop instead believing in their own inner strengths; and .....

...... the powers-that-be are still happy for it to exist, as it is still one way that the much of the populace remain in any sort of order and under control, thus narrowly avoiding total anarchy - for now.

Sorry if this view offends some, but thoughts were asked for - and these are mine.

Also apologies in advance, as I have visitors due any time now and may not be able to further comment for a while (therefore, I also haven't had time to read all posts thus far, but will endeavour to later - with a beer in hand, and tongue in cheek).

I think sarcasm won't take this thread anywhere we want it to go to.

The "if you don't have a good grasp of Christianity then you're lost in the world or don't understand literature" stinks of sanctimoniousness ...I can't believe we're even having this discussion. You don't need to be taught Christian education at the age of 6 through 13, for 2+ hours a week. Only 2 hours a week for 40 weeks a year (the school year) for 6 years means almost 500 hours of religious education !!! If my children NEED it later on to gain a deeper understanding of a certain literary work...so be it, they can read it later on, when they have formed opinions, values and can distinguish between faith, reason, dogma and so on. I refuse to have it etched in their heads at such an early age. Children are smart, they are not stupid, but they are naive and gullible.

How? ...........

You shouldn't forget that the bible is not the only source for alusions in European literature. In my opinion knowledge about Greek mythology is far more important to interpret German literature than knowledge about the bible. But expect the few students that learn ancient languages hardly anyone knows anything about it. Despite this you will not see a big difference between the students who study Latin and the ones who don't.

Despite all of this I do not think that religious knowledge should be required to understand literature at high school level. Of course it offers some deeper insight if you know that the whole storyline of Faust is a variation of Job, that the portrayal of Mephistopheles contradicts the church's image of the devil or that Goethe laid his own pantheistic and often anti religious views into Faust's mouth, but in my experience the teacher will provide the corresponding secondary sources (e.g. an extract from the bible, mythological background, etc.).

I really like the French secular idea of teaching philosophy rather than religion- to ALL the children. As an agnostic I also feel it is very important that children are not taught that not being religious means that one does not/cannot have a strong moral framework.

By not practising it and converting churches into apartment with high ceilings so people can fit in their Ikea wardrobes.

Thousands of years ago, prehistoric man used to worship the Sun, Moon and such and make human sacrifices to them (allegedly). Today most people either laugh at this or just find it unbelievable - the same will happen at some point in the future regarding Christian religion worship.

I'm only relating to Christian religion as it is this with which I'm familiar - I have insufficient knowledge of other religions.

How would you enforce that?

In the end, I think religion is BS, mainly BECAUSE of the fact that I studied it, rather than in spite of.

And, because of that, I think that others should study it as well, so that they can make their own INFORMED decisions.

Tom

Impossible.

Or is it ?



No, just kidding. You should never hinder people from believe whatever it is they want to believe, no matter how crazy, irrational or silly it may seem to you. As long as it works for them, for whatever purpose, so be it. The least you want is the atheist movement to be labeled as intolerant.

Agreed, it just can't be enforced- some have tried and see what happened. But religion should be totally separate from the State, including education and the judiciary and legislative. Charles was quite right to say that he couldn't ever be the Head of THE Church- eg, the Anglican Church- in such a multicultural society.

Timow where I lived before this was happening quite naturally. Several Churches turned into apartments and private houses, even restaurants and pubs. Quite a few also turned into Sikh and Hindu Temples. Here in Neuchatel the Church has sold about a 1/4 of its Vicarages and a lot of Churches only have services about once every 6 weeks. Our local Church actually is owned by the Commune, not the Church.

I did not learn to understand religious allusions in literature during my religion lessons at school (I had them for some 12 years as a child). When I started to read great works of European literature, I had to do the digging on my own and I was motivated to do so.
I don’t think children are ready to grasp the meaning of religious symbols and then apply this knowledge to novels, poems or plays that they are required to read.

I went to Catholic schools, and went through all the sacraments - first confession, Holy Communion, Confirmation, Benediction every Thursday, mass every Sunday and holy days of obligation. I've even been to the Vatican and seen Pope John Paul II conduct the Angelus. And I used to carry rosary beads because the local priest said you had to.

Spent 13 years learning all about scripture, transubtantiation, reading the Bible from beginning to end and can respond to anything a Jehovah's Witness might care to come up with with a conflicting quote. I took R.E. O-Level and got an "A".

I'm an atheist now - so all that indoctrination had a positive effect after all.

"How Far Can You Go" by David Lodge is one of my favourite books.

Cheers,
Nick

OK, so now I've read the whole thread....

Personally I don't buy the literature/art vs. bible thing - I studied English and European literature and have no religious knowledge whatsoever. Perhaps it makes it easier to understand some references, but from my experience when you need to look up a reference then you do that, you don't need to read and understand the whole bible to "get" religious quotes and concepts or to understand what was/is important in the Christian world. Of course I did then choose to study more modern literature, but I did my fair share of ye olde worlde literature too.

I'm actually more undecided and worried on the religion in schools topic now than I was before I read this though! I thought "hey it can't do any harm". But blimey if they started to teach catechism / prepare kids for confirmation (our kids haven't been baptised and will never be) then I'm totally against that. I hope that this is not how it is in our school. Religion is a part of the main timetable here (it's on Friday morning) - and the way I understood it was that if my son didn't do it he'd basically be left to his own devices during that time - so no "social studies" as an alternative - he would be supervised but basically left alone to do whatever.

How are we supposed to know what is in the classes - is it something they communicate? I haven't seen anything in the regular school booklet. I suppose I need to ask then..... [sigh].

confused.com here

about "the moral or religious bias of the teacher is sure to come out"

Same applies to the teaching of all subjects unfortunately.

I know people in the US who homeschool their children so they have a good Christian upbringing. I'd hate to see that happen here in Switzerland.

A) Religious instruction in the Canton of Zurich already in 1960 was "Biblische Geschichte und Sittenlehre" (Biblical history and the principles of decent manners) [short-name BS ] , with a clear principle of being non-denominational.
B) The public holidays are not to be abolished. No connection
C) Religious education is given out of school by the reverends, in fact using schoolrooms, but not being related to the school as such