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  #2281  
Old 17.02.2014, 15:25
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So as a Slovak guy I am worth less than someone from Italy, Germany, France?
Seems my boss is doing it the wrong way then, when he wants to advertise open position in our team directly in Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia (they have advertised it here in Switzerland for last three months but the only guy that applied and speaks german is a Spanish guy with Swiss passport, who would have to commute from Zurich to Bern every day)
EU-8 scoring better than PIGS I wonder what the position is and how much does he pay…
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Old 17.02.2014, 15:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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EU-8 scoring better than PIGS I wonder what the position is and how much does he pay…
the same salary a Swiss would expect no doubt....that's what the flankierende Massnahmen are about
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  #2283  
Old 17.02.2014, 16:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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just saying what I've been hearing in the British press lately
Interestingly Swiss radio station played an old rock song by Europe "The final countdown". The words started something like ...

We're living together ...

Hope to hear this inspirational song from the 80's more often
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  #2284  
Old 17.02.2014, 16:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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- Talks have been put on hold. They've not been cancelled.
The EU constitutionally cannot change the required agreement it has with Croatia, without renegotiating the agreements with all the other Eastern European countries (none of who will). Thus, it will fall to Switzerland to make concessions, which they wont do either. If you think the talks will continue as though nothing happened, just at a later date, you are optimistic to the point of naivety.

- None of the 2600 Swiss ERASMUS students will get sent home. They might have to fill in some additional forms, that's all. Plus more EU students are affected by this than Swiss students, which shows a) that the EU doesn't give a rat's a** about its own citizens and b) that the EU makes rash decisions that are es infantile as those made by Switzerland, with the exception that the EU citizen is never asked if he or she agrees.
What about future swiss students who might want subsidised gap years in Europe?
Only the EU students going to switzerland are affected, which is a very small minority of the total amount. Can you say who is more affected, the swiss student who cannot go to Europe, or the European student who cannot go to Switzerland?

- What "The Local" seems to have overlooked somehow is that Switzerland would be paying considerably more into the Horizon program than what it would get out of it. That money could, for example, be used to bolster the ETH. Also, as I said earlier, there are scores of Indian and Chinese students waiting for the coveted student spots at the ETH etc., so while we might get fewer EU students in the future, we won't get fewer students overall and the ETH is not going to get hurt by this.
Wrong. It is giving more to the EU as a whole, than it is getting back from the Horizon programme, but the Horizon Program was one small aspect of what CH gets from the EU. As already mentioned, the excellence of swiss institutions mean they are given more grants than other countries, proportional to their input. this is what would be cut.

- The Swiss government said that it expects that 8000 jobs WOULD BE CREATED, not HAVE BEEN created by the Horizon program. There's a slight difference there. Also, of those 8000 jobs, I reckon no more than 500 would go to people who are already in Switzerland, the rest would be filled by additional immigrants who are going to need healthcare, roads, housing etc. etc. That's exactly what the SVP initiative was about: unsustainable economic growth is apparently not what the Swiss voters want (and I can't blame them for it).
'No more than 500', based on what? are you plucking numbers out of thin air? would these theoretical 7500 not be paying into the system, and therefore fund themselves and the 'healthcare, roads, housing, etc etc'? I give back to CH far more than it gives me in healthcare, roads and housing...wouldnt these 7500 be doing the same?

- Stopping talks on the electricity agreement was somewhat stupid as the EU benefits much more from this than Switzerland. Good luck to Italy and Germany if Switzerland decides to stop letting them use Switzerland's storage power stations.
-Nope. What it does mean is that future energy projects will not take Switzerlands interests into account, something which is necassary since it is one big grid. It also means CH loses a valuable buyer of its excess electricity. Even if you sell to someone not in the EU, the EU will still charge transit fees.


- The article on "the local" sounds a bid lurid.
Perhaps the BBC is better? or Reuters? Look on either, the same details are there.

I am now worried more than before that the EU is behaving like a schoolyard bully. However, Switzerland indeed does have some trumps up its sleeve - let's cancel the transport agreement as "retaliation" seems to be the only language the EU understands. It's funny how they suddenly start acting like the USA now.
The EU is not being a bully, Switzerland is reneging on its own agreements, and will suiffer the pre-existing and pre-agreed consequences. Switzerland cant cry foul now because it is not getting its own way.
Seriously, stop with this 'EU being a bully' nonsense. They didnt force the renegotiation, you did. You just seem out of touch when you do.

Its like telling your bank you refuse to pay your mortgage, then claiming they're bullying you when they take your house off you.

Also, can you tell me where you got this 500/8000jobs figure from? Without evidence, you seem like you're taking figures from your back pocket.
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  #2285  
Old 17.02.2014, 16:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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He would totally exclude EU-2 (no work permits there), so you are worth a little bit more than me, apparently. If that does make you feel any better.
Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass on what a hater has to say on this subject.
I know enough Romanians (for instance) who work here in reputable companies which don't pay you less because you are from a "dirt-poor country" (right, he saw everything on TV so it must be true), so I think this guy is an ignoramus who doesn't deserve your attention.
The reason why I'm 'groaning' here is that I feel everyone is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong.
I feel the EF is the very place where everyone, of any nationality, can have their say.
If you give me a good enough reason, I'll remove the 'groan', but I'm sure it doesn't bother you what I do.
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  #2286  
Old 17.02.2014, 16:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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- What "The Local" seems to have overlooked somehow is that Switzerland would be paying considerably more into the Horizon program than what it would get out of it.
Do you have sources that back these statements up (genuine question, I'm interested in these details)?
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  #2287  
Old 17.02.2014, 16:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The reason why I'm 'groaning' here is that I feel everyone is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong.
I feel the EF is the very place where everyone, of any nationality, can have their say.
If you give me a good enough reason, I'll remove the 'groan', but I'm sure it doesn't bother you what I do.
On a lighter note, my wife heard on the radio the other day that a Swiss chap had written on a newspaper forum that he was glad the initiative had passed so hopefully there would no longer be foreign food filling the shelves of Swiss supermarkets.
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Old 17.02.2014, 16:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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On a lighter note, my wife heard on the radio the other day that a Swiss chap had written on a newspaper forum that he was glad the initiative had passed so hopefully there would no longer be foreign food filling the shelves of Swiss supermarkets.

The Swiss being of course, self-sufficient.

If there are no more Beans to be had, watch out for the reaction from Perfidious Albion...
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

For those of you fretting over Horizon 2020, don't panic (yet). From what I gather, it is a symbolic move on the part of Brussels. Nothing was due to be signed until at least September anyway, so this is just an opportunity for Brussels to look tough without actually doing anything.
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  #2290  
Old 17.02.2014, 17:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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the same salary a Swiss would expect no doubt....that's what the flankierende Massnahmen are about
There's always a range. Anyway, maybe #ice29 will report back.
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Sounds a bit like "Schadenfreude" on your part - which would not make a lot of sense.

Apart from that - let's not blow things out of proportion:

- Talks have been put on hold. They've not been cancelled.

- None of the 2600 Swiss ERASMUS students will get sent home. They might have to fill in some additional forms, that's all. Plus more EU students are affected by this than Swiss students, which shows a) that the EU doesn't give a rat's a** about its own citizens and b) that the EU makes rash decisions that are es infantile as those made by Switzerland, with the exception that the EU citizen is never asked if he or she agrees.

- What "The Local" seems to have overlooked somehow is that Switzerland would be paying considerably more into the Horizon program than what it would get out of it. That money could, for example, be used to bolster the ETH. Also, as I said earlier, there are scores of Indian and Chinese students waiting for the coveted student spots at the ETH etc., so while we might get fewer EU students in the future, we won't get fewer students overall and the ETH is not going to get hurt by this.

- The Swiss government said that it expects that 8000 jobs WOULD BE CREATED, not HAVE BEEN created by the Horizon program. There's a slight difference there. Also, of those 8000 jobs, I reckon no more than 500 would go to people who are already in Switzerland, the rest would be filled by additional immigrants who are going to need healthcare, roads, housing etc. etc. That's exactly what the SVP initiative was about: unsustainable economic growth is apparently not what the Swiss voters want (and I can't blame them for it).

- Stopping talks on the electricity agreement was somewhat stupid as the EU benefits much more from this than Switzerland. Good luck to Italy and Germany if Switzerland decides to stop letting them use Switzerland's storage power stations.

- The article on "the local" sounds a bid lurid.

I am now worried more than before that the EU is behaving like a schoolyard bully. However, Switzerland indeed does have some trumps up its sleeve - let's cancel the transport agreement as "retaliation" seems to be the only language the EU understands. It's funny how they suddenly start acting like the USA now.
After all the goodies are divided up Switzerland would receive about 3 billion from the Horizon program, but contributes around 3.6 billion. Therefore, EU is doing Switzerland a favor, the money can stay in Switzerland. As I wrote previously, "Switzerland is smaller than the EU but smarter." Just wait until the circus really begins, it's going to get comical!
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  #2292  
Old 17.02.2014, 17:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Interestingly Swiss radio station played an old rock song by Europe "The final countdown". The words started something like ...

We're living together ...

Hope to hear this inspirational song from the 80's more often
It was "leaving"
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  #2293  
Old 17.02.2014, 17:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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For those of you fretting over Horizon 2020, don't panic (yet). From what I gather, it is a symbolic move on the part of Brussels. Nothing was due to be signed until at least September anyway, so this is just an opportunity for Brussels to look tough without actually doing anything.
Thats not quite true...negotiations began before the previous EU Research and Innovation Programme expired ( around September last year). The talks were ongoing, and would take approximately 12 months for finalisation, which would have led to the final agreement being signed in September this year. This assumed no freeze in the talks.

As well, its important to note that research institutions were and are able to apply for these funds in the transitionary period (Sep 2013-Sep 2014). With a freeze in EU-Swiss talks, it is unclear if it also means a freeze in Swiss institutions getting access to this pot, but it seems likely considering the comments already that access requires FMOP.

I would say that it is symbolic to the extent that it is not the worst thing to happen, but it can be viewed as a sign that the EU are taking it seriously.
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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After all the goodies are divided up Switzerland would receive about 3 billion from the Horizon program, but contributes around 3.6 billion. Therefore, EU is doing Switzerland a favor, the money can stay in Switzerland. As I wrote previously, "Switzerland is smaller than the EU but smarter." Just wait until the circus really begins, it's going to get comical!
Thats not the amount it contributes to the Horizon program, thats the amount it contributes to the EU.

Or, another way to look at it...almost the entire amount the Swiss give to the EU, they were going to get back through Horizon 2020.

The rolling laughing smileys may be premature.
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The reason why I'm 'groaning' here is that I feel everyone is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong.
I feel the EF is the very place where everyone, of any nationality, can have their say.
If you give me a good enough reason, I'll remove the 'groan', but I'm sure it doesn't bother you what I do.
What does it mean "can have their say?" He could have chosen less offensive words at least, let aside less offensive "ideas". I don't think it is fair that EU-2 should be treated in a discriminatory way, it has already happened and it is high time some countries cease doing so. If Switzerland wants deals with EU, fine, but then they should know that EU includes EU-2 too. There are severe restrictions in place, for the moment (and for a few good years to come), so I don't understand why this subject is always brought up on this forum. I get it, many people here are of British nationality, hence heavily influenced by politics in their own country (I don't want to comment on this, as it doesn't and will never affect me, not that I wouldn't have something to say), but still.....I expected (past tense) a bit more from this forum.
You can groan me as much as you want and see fit, that will not change my feelings that I am right to react in a certain way.
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Thats not the amount it contributes to the Horizon program, thats the amount it contributes to the EU.

Or, another way to look at it...almost the entire amount the Swiss give to the EU, they were going to get back through Horizon 2020.
Either way you look at it...it seems clever to me. The €94.7 billion up for grabs in Horizon 20-20 must be divided up in the EU along with Switzerland and all the other 30 or so countries, which roughly comes out to about 3 billion for each country for research...give or take a little. Switzerland being smaller will most likely get less. Switzerland contributes 4.4 billion-CHF or approximately €3.6 billion. There's no need for the Swiss to subsidize EU...let them keep Horizon 20-20...next!
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Either way you look at it...it seems clever to me. The €94.7 billion up for grabs in Horizon 20-20 must be divided up in the EU along with Switzerland and all the other 30 or so countries, which roughly comes out to about 3 billion for each country for research...give or take a little. Switzerland being smaller will most likely get less. Switzerland contributes 4.4 billion-CHF or approximately €3.6 billion. There's no need for the Swiss to subsidize EU...let them keep Horizon 20-20...next!
You dont understand Horizon 2020.

The money isnt given on the basis of population, or equally to each country. It is given on the basis of excellence (read my earlier post). The countries with the more advanced research, receive more of the money.

Switzerland has excellent research facilities, in comparison to its size and its (east European) neighbours. That means CH stood in line to receive several billions more then they did.

Also, the money for Horizon 2020 came from the general EU budget, not a specific one. That means that the actual amount contributed indirectly from Switzerland was probably less than 10% of the 3.6billion EUR.
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You dont understand Horizon 2020.

It isnt given on the basis of population, or equally to each country. It is given on the basis of excellence (read my earlier post). The countries with the more advanced research, receive more of the money.

Switzerland has excellent research facilities, in comparison to its size and its (east European) neighbours. That means it stood in line to receive several billions more then they did.
Just so us uneducated folks can read up on this as well - are there any links or portals you could offer?

Ta
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Sounds a bit like "Schadenfreude" on your part - which would not make a lot of sense.

Apart from that - let's not blow things out of proportion:

- Talks have been put on hold. They've not been cancelled.

- None of the 2600 Swiss ERASMUS students will get sent home. They might have to fill in some additional forms, that's all. Plus more EU students are affected by this than Swiss students, which shows a) that the EU doesn't give a rat's a** about its own citizens and b) that the EU makes rash decisions that are es infantile as those made by Switzerland, with the exception that the EU citizen is never asked if he or she agrees.

- What "The Local" seems to have overlooked somehow is that Switzerland would be paying considerably more into the Horizon program than what it would get out of it. That money could, for example, be used to bolster the ETH. Also, as I said earlier, there are scores of Indian and Chinese students waiting for the coveted student spots at the ETH etc., so while we might get fewer EU students in the future, we won't get fewer students overall and the ETH is not going to get hurt by this.

- The Swiss government said that it expects that 8000 jobs WOULD BE CREATED, not HAVE BEEN created by the Horizon program. There's a slight difference there. Also, of those 8000 jobs, I reckon no more than 500 would go to people who are already in Switzerland, the rest would be filled by additional immigrants who are going to need healthcare, roads, housing etc. etc. That's exactly what the SVP initiative was about: unsustainable economic growth is apparently not what the Swiss voters want (and I can't blame them for it).

- Stopping talks on the electricity agreement was somewhat stupid as the EU benefits much more from this than Switzerland. Good luck to Italy and Germany if Switzerland decides to stop letting them use Switzerland's storage power stations.

- The article on "the local" sounds a bid lurid.

I am now worried more than before that the EU is behaving like a schoolyard bully. However, Switzerland indeed does have some trumps up its sleeve - let's cancel the transport agreement as "retaliation" seems to be the only language the EU understands. It's funny how they suddenly start acting like the USA now.
I agree with you. The EU is being infantile here and is clearly sending a shot across the bows. I was also surprised to see that Switzerland decided to kill the Croatia FMOP (is this really the case? I haven't seen anything conclusive on this yet) given that they had 3 years to discuss with the EU and come up with a plan. Why shoot from the hip? Badly played, IMO.

The EU reaction is a bad sign, IMO. It could mean that the EU is happy to "spite its own face" in order to maintain the sanctity of FMOP. Possibly sending a signal to the UK and other countries who would look to do the same.

As I said in a previous post, I do agree with the ideal of FMOP, but also recognise that it is politically divisive and quotas could be a reasonable compromise.

The EU and Switzerland have a lot to gain by working together constructively, but Switzerland has a lot more to lose if things go sour.

My personal belief is that EU has been happy for Switzerland to do its own thing for a while on the assumption that it would eventually be brought into the EU (gradual ratcheting of laws). If things turn ugly, the EU could bring a lot of pressure to bear down on Switzerland.
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Old 17.02.2014, 17:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Just so us uneducated folks can read up on this as well - are there any links or portals you could offer?

Ta
Even better: the Horizon 2020 homepage:

http://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en

Also, if you want:

http://euobserver.com/news/123157
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1F0X420140216
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26225121
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25961243

I could go on, but there is no need...just google 'Horizon 2020' and go to the News tab.
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