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  #2341  
Old 17.02.2014, 23:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I wouldn't be surprised if in the future B permits will be given only to people who can demonstrate at least B1 level of German/French/Italian (depending on the canton where they intend to live).
unless german is required for the job, that puts additional useless conditions on employment that will make it harder for companies to recruit the people they need.
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  #2342  
Old 18.02.2014, 00:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Especially here where, lets face it, they dont really have a voice.
Please name a country where they do.

Tom
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  #2343  
Old 18.02.2014, 00:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I wouldn't be surprised if in the future B permits will be given only to people who can demonstrate at least B1 level of German/French/Italian (depending on the canton where they intend to live).
I got permits no problem without speaking the language of the canton that I moved to.

(OK, I do speak/read/write fluent French, but have never lived in the French/speaking bits)

Tom
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Old 18.02.2014, 00:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Please name a country where they do.

Tom
Please name any other country where 24% of the population has no voice.

Dave.

(my name isn't Dave. Just like the signature.)
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Old 18.02.2014, 00:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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FMOP is a good idea but free movement of unskilled workers who don't speak the language of their host country is a problem. Not to mention free movements of beggars and welfare tourists.

The EU should try and do something about the welfare tourism issue,

People can only immigrate here if they have a job contract; if the employer can take them without a language then what is the problem?

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Agree with this welfare tourism is a huge political issue and one that the EU should have addressed.

Quotas on immigration and controls on welfare tourism would make FMOP much more palatable to the voting public. The EU should get their collective heads out of their arses and recognise that a better result might be achieved with less dogma.

How many actual welfare tourists here? This is a flea on the back of the elephant!

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Because our dear government told us that no more than 8000 people per year would come in?!

Do you have a link to this?
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  #2346  
Old 18.02.2014, 00:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I got permits no problem without speaking the language of the canton that I moved to.

(OK, I do speak/read/write fluent French, but have never lived in the French/speaking bits)

Tom

How many years ago? How relevant today?
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  #2347  
Old 18.02.2014, 00:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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How many actual welfare tourists here? This is a flea on the back of the elephant!
if there aren't many, then no problem stopping it then

the issue i guess is not necessarily one of economics, but perception and voter acceptance.
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  #2348  
Old 18.02.2014, 00:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The discussion is somehow getting out of hand...

These research programs are important for the universities and it doesn't matter at all how these universities are ranked. This has nothing to do with money either. Switzerland "losing" 1 ,2 or 5 billion by being or not being in these programs is not really an argument for anything. If this had been the price to resolve the immigration related issues, we would have gladly paid it. The whole money calculations are anyway worthless if one does not calculate the drawbacks (infrastructure) and benefits (economic growth) of immigration into the calculation as well as the future development of it which is hard to predict.

And this is anyway only an economical perspective, which, and this might shock some of you, is not the only perspective that is important.


Accepting this initiative was a risk. It was clear that it would harm the relationship with the EU in one way or another. The exact long-term influence of it was and is unknown, but apparently the voters were ready to accept that risk even if some advantages of the contracts would be lost in the process. Horizon2020 and Erasmus+ are all good and well, but they are hardly the backbone of Swiss society.
No one is claiming they are.

But what they are, and what everyone here is saying, is that they are significant. They are significant contributions to Switzerland. They are significant statements of intent. They are the clearest sign yet that the EU is not going to take this lying down. That is the important perspective here.

Regarding your last point, the divisive issue is not that people voted for this...its how ill prepared they seemed to have been. Many of my colleagues voted yes, but when we discussed the possible loss of funding from H2020 this morning, they were genuinely shocked. They didn't realize things like that were at stake. They genuinely did not realize the economic impact of this vote, because they were led to believe there wasn't really any. At one of our manufacturing plants that we are considering closing, (its in rural switzerland) most voted yes. When i pointed out that if the FMOG treaty was cancelled, it would significantly increase the chances that they would lose their jobs and the plant would be closed, they were shocked. These are not 16 year old apprentices, they are 40-50 year old engineers and tradesmen.

There is almost a feeling that many of the swiss were voting for something they did not truly understand, and still do not, but that the decision they made will not affect them, it affects those who are trying to give back to Switzerland.

So to your point, no, they are not the backbone of the swiss economy. But they are a useful yardstick as to which way the wind is blowing.
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Old 18.02.2014, 00:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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if there aren't many, then no problem stopping it then

the issue i guess is not necessarily one of economics, but perception and voter acceptance.
The FMoP has no relation to how a EU country chooses to order its welfare laws. The EU said nothing when CH tightened its welfare rules for EU jobseekers last year because it had no standing in the matter.

Anyone stop to ask even for a minute why Switzerland was handing out job seeker visas in the first place? The FMoP certainly did not require it.

The whole canard about the EU being the cause/being able to stop welfare tourism just shows the kind of misinformation and ignorance that has been exploited in this initiative.
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Old 18.02.2014, 01:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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if there aren't many, then no problem stopping it then
About "then no problem stopping it then" Sure - a minor problem - you do not have to vote for "Masseneinwanderung Stoppen" and risk losing all the EU bilateral treaties......

About "the issue i guess is not necessarily one of economics, but perception and voter acceptance." -I suppose you could replace "perception" with other words like "actual facts" or "ignorance of"....
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Old 18.02.2014, 01:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Aebischer Vs Fabienne Despot, Round 1, Fight:

http://www.rts.ch/audio/la-1ere/prog...7-02-2014.html


Aebischer..... Fatality.... !!!


On the serious side: Aebischer contradicts you totally.
I like contradiction. Life is boring without it.

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Someone teaching you differential equations as they should be taught is not a negative effect. .
Make a proposal for a model and I will give you a grade. But don't expect me to give you an EF community bonus


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No one is claiming they are.
But what they are, and what everyone here is saying, is that they are significant. They are significant contributions to Switzerland. They are significant statements of intent. They are the clearest sign yet that the EU is not going to take this lying down. That is the important perspective here.
I agree that they are significant. I am not disputing this at all, but they chose these contracts for a very specific reasons:
  1. The contracts are important for the universities and the economy alike, so this measure will get publicity.
  2. They are not directly related to the freedom of movement treaty directly, showing the EU is not willing to limit the conflict to this area.
  3. They could do something that has no immediate effect, but allows room for further escalation. The door is still open.
In short: It is a very good sign that they don't want to escalate the situation at the moment. Maybe just not yet. But maybe they are, as we are, afraid of the consequences of the escalation.

On the other hand it's the EU . At leasts Richard Nixons madman-foreign-policy was in place on purpose...

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Regarding your last point, the divisive issue is not that people voted for this...its how ill prepared they seemed to have been. Many of my colleagues voted yes, but when we discussed the possible loss of funding from H2020 this morning, they were genuinely shocked. They didn't realize things like that were at stake. They genuinely did not realize the economic impact of this vote, because they were led to believe there wasn't really any. At one of our manufacturing plants that we are considering closing, (its in rural switzerland) most voted yes. When i pointed out that if the FMOG treaty was cancelled, it would significantly increase the chances that they would lose their jobs and the plant would be closed, they were shocked. These are not 16 year old apprentices, they are 40-50 year old engineers and tradesmen.

There is almost a feeling that many of the swiss were voting for something they did not truly understand, and still do not, but that the decision they made will not affect them, it affects those who are trying to give back to Switzerland.
I can agree to that to some part. To be honest: Many never understand all the consequences of a vote (I would go so far and say it is impossible, except you come from the future). Usually you can find them on both sides. We could initiate an initiative that proposes to paint the sky green and it would be turned down with 90% "no" at most. On the other hand have you ever actually listened to the politicians in the representative democracies when they discuss actual topics in parliament and they know it will not be covered in evening news? This can be really bothering and the ones who actually stand up to speak are the ones that partially read the act they are voting on , but I digress...

My point is: I think it is really difficult to know what will happen, because of the complexity of the bilaterals and the two overly complicated systems that ratified them. That's why I called them a risk and that's why I think it was a bad decision. But the sign we got was: "We do not like it, but we won't do anything significant....right now".

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So to your point, no, they are not the backbone of the swiss economy. But they are a useful yardstick as to which way the wind is blowing.
It would be strange if it was blowing in the other direction
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  #2352  
Old 18.02.2014, 01:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The FMoP has no relation to how a EU country chooses to order its welfare laws. The EU said nothing when CH tightened its welfare rules for EU jobseekers last year because it had no standing in the matter.

Anyone stop to ask even for a minute why Switzerland was handing out job seeker visas in the first place? The FMoP certainly did not require it.

The whole canard about the EU being the cause/being able to stop welfare tourism just shows the kind of misinformation and ignorance that has been exploited in this initiative.
It doesn't say how CH should set welfare laws. But it has to apply them equally to Swiss and EU residents.

FMOP requires that Switzerland allow EU citizens to be able to live and work in Switzerland.
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Old 18.02.2014, 02:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It doesn't say how CH should set welfare laws. But it has to apply them equally to Swiss and EU residents.

FMOP requires that Switzerland allow EU citizens to be able to live and work in Switzerland.
Here is the FMoP summary text

Nowhere does it specify that welfare laws have to be applied equally.

Where the job seeker visa allowed upto six months of residency, the EU FMoP text regarding residence beyond the 90 day tourist/business limit is quite clear:

"Right of residence for more than three months

The right of residence for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:

either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);
or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;
or be following vocational training as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay;
or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories."

And further below:
"However, the host Member State is not obliged to grant entitlement to social security during the first three months of residence to persons other than employed or self-employed workers and the members of their family."

If somebody knew this text and then voted yes, well and good. But those people are likely to be a lot less than 50.3 %
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Old 18.02.2014, 03:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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People can only immigrate here if they have a job contract; if the employer can take them without a language then what is the problem?

How many actual welfare tourists here? This is a flea on the back of the elephant!

Do you have a link to this?
marton I understand that this is an emotional topic for you but I think you should read a bit more about the issues at hand before making judgements on situation which, quite frankly, I doubt you understand.

Just yesterday the NZZ released figures of the Valais, where regional unemployment is as high as 14%, simply due to the fact that these seasonal EU workers in construction don't want employment in winter, as they've already signed their new contracts in spring which allows them to enjoy winter back home with their families all financed by Swiss unemployment benefits. Construction companies obviously benefit greatly from this agreement as these workers stay with them for years while the companies only provide them with temporary contracts. The workers themselves are happy enough with the arrangement too as salaries and unemployment benefits are generous.

This is exactly the reason why the SVP wants to reintroduce seasonal work permits, which only allow you to stay as long as your work contract states and where you can't draw unemployment benefits or IV later on (back-related issues are hard to disprove, and are very common in the construction sector). With the free movement of people came the same mentality of fleecing the state as is apparent all over Southern Europe, and that IS a big deal, not just a flea on the back of an elephant as you so kindly stated.

Much of the business sector knows very well that they'd have no problems selling and buying from the EU even without the bilaterals, there is EFTA after all and WTO... but they also know that they couldn't abuse the system quite as easily as they do know, hiring EU graduates for the price of simple admin staff... I know because I've previously worked for one of the largest employers in Switzerland and Europe, and the salary dumping was very real, they simply couldn't employ any Swiss anymore for what they were willing to pay.
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Old 18.02.2014, 07:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Please name a country where they do.

Tom

In UK people can vote for the council they live in.

In EU, EU people can vote for the parliament, wherever they are.

In Italy (!!!!) some parties allow for selecting the "secretary".
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Old 18.02.2014, 07:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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marton I understand that this is an emotional topic for you but I think you should read a bit more about the issues at hand before making judgements on situation which, quite frankly, I doubt you understand.

Just yesterday the NZZ released figures of the Valais, where regional unemployment is as high as 14%, simply due to the fact that these seasonal EU workers in construction don't want employment in winter, as they've already signed their new contracts in spring which allows them to enjoy winter back home with their families all financed by Swiss unemployment benefits. Construction companies obviously benefit greatly from this agreement as these workers stay with them for years while the companies only provide them with temporary contracts. The workers themselves are happy enough with the arrangement too as salaries and unemployment benefits are generous.

This is exactly the reason why the SVP wants to reintroduce seasonal work permits, which only allow you to stay as long as your work contract states and where you can't draw unemployment benefits or IV later on (back-related issues are hard to disprove, and are very common in the construction sector). With the free movement of people came the same mentality of fleecing the state as is apparent all over Southern Europe, and that IS a big deal, not just a flea on the back of an elephant as you so kindly stated.

Much of the business sector knows very well that they'd have no problems selling and buying from the EU even without the bilaterals, there is EFTA after all and WTO... but they also know that they couldn't abuse the system quite as easily as they do know, hiring EU graduates for the price of simple admin staff... I know because I've previously worked for one of the largest employers in Switzerland and Europe, and the salary dumping was very real, they simply couldn't employ any Swiss anymore for what they were willing to pay.

Salary dumping will happen also after this, the workers can just come and work for cash.

It already happens, but since there was openes, the phenomenon was somehow limited. If you want to curb that phenomenon you rather need
to put good checks in place.

I do not think you people reasoned this through. I do not think UDC was expecting this to backfire this much already, to be honest.

This initiative has allegedly negative effects on everybody, native population and immigrants altogether, and no positive effect.

A more collaborative law, with less nationalistic bullshit in, would have done much better to this country.

After it was passed, I heard so many nationalistic talks, even from people one would not expect that.

Deep blind nationalistic talks.

Deep blind nationalism is dumb and makes one do dumb choices.
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Old 18.02.2014, 08:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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With the free movement of people came the same mentality of fleecing the state as is apparent all over Southern Europe, and that IS a big deal, not just a flea on the back of an elephant as you so kindly stated..
Why targetting southern Europe? It's the same mentality in Scandinavia and England.... leave the "lazy mediterraneans" crap please.
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Old 18.02.2014, 08:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The FMoP has no relation to how a EU country chooses to order its welfare laws. The EU said nothing when CH tightened its welfare rules for EU jobseekers last year because it had no standing in the matter.

Anyone stop to ask even for a minute why Switzerland was handing out job seeker visas in the first place? The FMoP certainly did not require it.

The whole canard about the EU being the cause/being able to stop welfare tourism just shows the kind of misinformation and ignorance that has been exploited in this initiative.
Ditto, the misinformation about EU on this forum (and the propaganda from SVP) is massive…outside of the four main pillars there is little impact on a country, unless you chose to join the EMU (creating the EMU was for me the worst mistake ever in the history of EU)

Just an example there came a lot of Romanians to Sweden when they joined the EU looking for job, but after 3 months the ones that couldn't get one was sent home i.e. no social welfare for anyone…

as said so many times before, Switzerland does never have to pay any social welfare for EU Job seekers…and still this is used by the SVP for their propaganda...
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Old 18.02.2014, 08:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I may confuse people in who I groan (well, I rarely groan because I value all contributions) and who I thank. I try to keep an open mind.
I have a few comments about the research, 'my country is more intelligent than yours' thing.


1. In at least 2 areas of research- Electronic and Infertility Iran leads.
2. Iran is supposedly cut-off by sanctions, yet Iranian Universities still rank highly, there are no foreign lecturers. So Switzerland could, hypothetically, achieve the same status as Iran from homegrown scientists.
3. Most of the foremost research institutions in the world have Iranian scientists, they don't have that many Swiss.
4. During the 1979 revolution letters of thanks were sent to the Iranian Govt., for the brain-drain from Iran. When the host countries curtailed visas for Iranian establishments, those establishments claimed that this would seriously affect the efficacy of their programs. If the Swiss exchange research programs are affected by the rules who will suffer more; Switzerland ? Are the Swiss replaceable?


So, now I have two very naive questions:


Will this vote evoke retaliatory gestures- or sanctions against Switzerland?


What is there to stop a new referendum, in favor of promoting immigration (from any country, not just EU) that helps achieve Swiss goals in Science, Industry, and Economics?


Finally hats of to the guy from Zimbabwe for saying that Zimbabwe doesn't owe him or his family anything.
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Old 18.02.2014, 08:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

So many of us can complain bitterly about Swiss immigration policies, but the people feel really sorry for are the patriotic Swiss, who are being totally manipulated and hurt by SVP interests.
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