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  #2501  
Old 18.02.2014, 23:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Angela proof to be a smart cookie BTW I seen a picture of her naked
...and you are still alive...??? man you are made of steel.
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  #2502  
Old 18.02.2014, 23:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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From the context I assume you mean they were against immigration, i.e. they voted yes?
yes sorry, I meant against FMOP, ie pro the SVP initiative..
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  #2503  
Old 18.02.2014, 23:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I understand the need to curb immigration due to house prices spiking and so on.

What I do not understand is the nationalistic propaganda in which this was brought up.
Not trying to be smart, I barely pay attention to electoral propaganda, but could you give me an example?
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  #2504  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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yes sorry, I meant against FMOP, ie pro the SVP initiative..
Putting this vote aside, do people make you feel unwelcome in that town? I mean, besides the one or other idiot you're bound to meet anywhere on this world.
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  #2505  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Not trying to be smart, I barely pay attention to electoral propaganda, but could you give me an example?
Luzi Stamm interviews:

J: do you think Switzerland needs these Grippen?

L: The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

J: Do you think losing Erasmus is bad for Switzerland?

L: The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

J: And personnel for hospitals???

L: we can get retired people. It would be nice. The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

J: ????

L: The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

J: chocolate or banana?

L: The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

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  #2506  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Due to its geographical location, Switzerland occupies a special position in the European transport network. A significant proportion of international goods transport between northern and southern Europe goes over Swiss alpine passes. We can always collect "our" goods at the border and turn the trucks and trains around. They'll have to find another way to transport their goods to other places.

Are you familiar with the GBT? Probably not...The Gotthard Base Tunnel will surpass the 53.8-kilometer Seikan rail tunnel linking the Japanese islands of Honshu and Hokkaido and the world's longest road tunnel, the 24.5-kilometer Laerdal in Norway.

In 2016-17, The Gotthard Base Tunnel at 57 km will surpass not only the Lötschberg Base Tunnel as the longest land tunnel in the world, but also the Japanese Seikan Submarine Tunnel (53.85km) as the world’s longest tunnel — period!....it's funny how many of you come to Switzerland to collect a pay check but you don't "really" understand why Switzerland is small but a BIG player on the world map....amazing!
I suggest you study a bit of geography...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Blanc_Tunnel

But more important...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel

There are already viable alternatives to the Gotthard, and when the Brenner Tunnel is completed, there will be even more. You are very arrogant and ignorant if you think that a country so small like CH can block trade inside the EU, or even make it significantly slower...
The opposite could actually in theory happen (but it won't), if all surrounding countries block Swiss goods going out of the country.

Should I remind you that just a few days ago it was Switzerland who needed EU countries to manage a plane hijacking, since apparently military pilots in your wealthy country don't want to work too much...
http://www.thelocal.fr/20140218/hija...swiss-airforce
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  #2507  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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all countries in the EU are broke except Germany?…..yeah :roll eyes:
you really ARE totally clueless…wow...
Oh dear...you had to ask for it...
Did you know the impact of the financial crisis in Europe have been severe and far-reaching. Billions of dollars have been loaned out to struggling countries; banks have turned belly up as they are unable to pay back debts; elections have been won and lost; “austerity” and “bailout” have become household words. Another round of bank bailouts may be needed sooner rather than later, with Slovenia projected by some analysts to become the next victim of the banking plague.
The problem is that several of the countries that have received aid money are continuing to struggle even as the rest of Europe picks up...slightly. The five main ones are:


Cyprus: The country’s largest bank, Bank of Cyprus, went through a major period of restructuring, while the country’s second largest bank, Cyprus Popular Bank, had to be shut down entirely for a period in order to prevent a run in. And more bailout is on the way.


Ireland: The bailout total for the country came to some 85 billion Euros, 22 million euros of which were provided by the International Monetary Fund — that’s more than 10 times the amount that has been projected for Cyprus.


Portugal: The sum of money requested from international organizations by Portugal totals 78 billion euros. Though slightly less than the Irish sum, Portugal felt the need for international aid when rising bond rates made it virtually impossible for the country to raise the funds that it needed to cover its budgetary needs. As unemployment rates rose, the government turned to international organizations in mid-2011.


Spain: In 2012, Spain had to turn to the European Central Bank for assistance in restructuring its financial sector. The reforms included trimming and bolstering Spain’s top three banks as well as the creation of SAREB, a so-called “bad bank” to absorb questionable and under-performing assets. The price tag for the reforms has so far come in at 41 billion euros. However, since 100 billion euros was approved for the country in 2012r, it is possible that the sum will increase before the end of the crisis. With debt levels approaching 100% gross domestic product and unemployment levels still well over 25 percent, Spain still has a long way to go before it’s out of the woods.


Greece: Greece, comes as no surprise to anyone familiar with the European debt crisis. Facing massive budget shortfalls and the prospect of defaulting on its government debt, Greece has so far required two bailout programs from its so-called troika of international lenders. The worst part of the situation in Greece is that the situation is still far from showing a tangible improvement. The latest unemployment data shows an increase in rates to nearly 28%, with some organizations projecting that the rate could reach the mid 30s a few years down the road.


Need I go on? France is barely hanging on, Luxembourg seems to be doing OK....however, the so-called BIG players in the EU are broke with newer less financially stable countries being added to the milieu! In fact, the other countries don't really count too much, they have to run home to momma....Germany! Oh, by the way, Switzerland didn't need a bailout though not a part "officially" of the EU anyways. Thank-goodness for that!
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  #2508  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Luzi Stamm interviews:

J: do you think Switzerland needs these Grippen?

L: The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

J: Do you think losing Erasmus is bad for Switzerland?

L: The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

J: And personnel for hospitals???

L: we can get retired people. It would be nice. The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

J: ????

L: The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

J: chocolate or banana?

L: The biggest issue of Switzerland is immigration.

...are you sure you got the last answer right?

But seriously, if I paid attention to all that is said in Berne, I would long since have gone bananas. Thats why it's good to have some 250 blabbering fools there. Generally the extreme positions cancel each other out, and what comes out is more or less useful...
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  #2509  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I suggest you study a bit of geography...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Blanc_Tunnel

But more important...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel

There are already viable alternatives to the Gotthard, and when the Brenner Tunnel is completed, there will be even more. You are very arrogant and ignorant if you think that a country so small like CH can block trade inside the EU, or even make it significantly slower...
The opposite could actually in theory happen (but it won't), if all surrounding countries block Swiss goods going out of the country.

Should I remind you that just a few days ago it was Switzerland who needed EU countries to manage a plane hijacking, since apparently military pilots in your wealthy country don't want to work too much...
http://www.thelocal.fr/20140218/hija...swiss-airforce
We will see what happens...many of you come with your theories and such, but those theories NEVER defeat the fact that Switzerland is a small country but a BIG player on the world map...Period!
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  #2510  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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(...)

Should I remind you that just a few days ago it was Switzerland who needed EU countries to manage a plane hijacking, since apparently military pilots in your wealthy country don't want to work too much...
http://www.thelocal.fr/20140218/hija...swiss-airforce
Well the shrinking budget does not allow for it. That has nothing to do with the will of the pilots...
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  #2511  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Putting this vote aside, do people make you feel unwelcome in that town? I mean, besides the one or other idiot you're bound to meet anywhere on this world.
Neutral I would say...which is great for me, we Swedes don't like enforced commitments and relationships

For me it's a great thing seeing smaller villages really profiting from the Bilaterals, even though it has some "minor" drawbacks (e.g. crowded, queues), but the opposite isn't that great either...

I remember in Sweden after the good old days were gone (before joining EU in the early 90s), where villages died out - companies & major industries moved to the citites, shops, banks, public transportation closed etc, I don't want that to happen to villages here...
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  #2512  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Lol. I have been thinking about this for quite a while.

We have three variables (time,space and quotas) so even if it seems
impossible to respect the EU treaties and still implement this massenblabla it is actually possible.

In my opinion they will implement it in the following way:

a) None of the UDC bullshit will be implemented. It is detrimental to
everything and pointless nationalistic propaganda.
Possible, if there is another vote.

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b) Solved a), the politicians will create a quota system as follows:

-50% of the cantons have to be, every year, without a quota
-the other bit can adhere to quotas
-a canton can stay in quota state for max 5 years
-a good distribution of quota-non quota cantons shall be enforced to avoid
clustering of cantons.

It curbs immigration: yes, it makes it a pain.
It makes the EU happy: yes it does.

The only ones unhappy would be UDC people, that, I understand, are rich and wealthy, so they can live with it.

No consequences, EU treaties intact.
This makes no sense at all. Not only would it still breach the freedom of movement treaties [1], it also does not implement the initiative correctly and therefore also breaches the Swiss constitution [2].
All currently existing proposals on how to continue were at least following one of the laws we are bound to. If one would want to circumvent the initiative, which would be a very questionable sign regarding the state of the democracy, then the immigration limit could be set to 1000000 annually. Problem resolved if the EU agrees to accept this trick. But this will not happen.


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It reminds me vaguely of the time division protocol of early bluetooth, lol.
It's rather like MAGENTA. Ugly and slow as f* and it does none of the jobs it is supposed to do.



[1] Abkommen über die Freizügigkeit Art.7 b: "Recht auf berufliche und geographische Mobilität, das es den Staatsangehörigen der Vertragsparteien gestattet, sich im Hoheitsgebiet des Aufnahmestaates frei zu bewegen und den Beruf ihrer Wahl auszuüben;
[2] Art 121a: Die Zahl der Bewilligungen für den Aufenthalt von Ausländerinnen und Ausländern in der Schweiz wird durch jährliche Höchstzahlen und Kontingente begrenzt. Die Höchstzahlen gelten für sämtliche Bewilligungen des Ausländerrechts unter Einbezug des Asylwesens
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  #2513  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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We will see what happens...many of you come with your theories and such, but those theories NEVER defeat the fact that Switzerland is a small country but a BIG player on the world map...Period!
Such threats do not seem very constructive. CH does have some leverage for negotiations, which I believe your argument to be. However, there are also clear dependencies.

There is a need for new negotiations, which will take place. Allow the EU to go through with their elections, with all the associated dramatics, and after that things will look different.

CH, as a sovereign nation, has the right to decide wether certain contracts are in their interest or not. In the long run the EU will accept that, lest they want to look disrespectful of a people's right of choice.
Also, there are some changes to be expected in the EU.
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Old 19.02.2014, 00:42
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Possible, if there is another vote.


This makes no sense at all. Not only would it still breach the freedom of movement treaties [1], it also does not implement the initiative correctly and therefore also breaches the Swiss constitution [2].
All currently existing proposals on how to continue were at least following one of the laws we are bound to. If one would want to circumvent the initiative, which would be a very questionable sign regarding the state of the democracy, then the immigration limit could be set to 1000000 annually. Problem resolved if the EU agrees to accept this trick. But this will not happen.



It's rather like MAGENTA. Ugly and slow as f* and it does none of the jobs it is supposed to do.



[1] Abkommen über die Freizügigkeit Art.7 b: "Recht auf berufliche und geographische Mobilität, das es den Staatsangehörigen der Vertragsparteien gestattet, sich im Hoheitsgebiet des Aufnahmestaates frei zu bewegen und den Beruf ihrer Wahl auszuüben;
[2] Art 121a: Die Zahl der Bewilligungen für den Aufenthalt von Ausländerinnen und Ausländern in der Schweiz wird durch jährliche Höchstzahlen und Kontingente begrenzt. Die Höchstzahlen gelten für sämtliche Bewilligungen des Ausländerrechts unter Einbezug des Asylwesens

Let's go about the initiative text shall we?

Quote:
La Suisse gère de manière autonome l’immigration des étrangers.2 Le nombre des autorisations délivrées pour le séjour des étrangers en Suisse est limité par des plafonds et des contingents annuels. Les plafonds valent pour toutes les autorisations délivrées en vertu du droit des étrangers, domaine de l’asile inclus. Le droit au séjour durable, au regroupement familial et aux prestations sociales peut être limité.
3 Les plafonds et les contingents annuels pour les étrangers exerçant une activité lucrative doivent être fixés en fonction des intérêts économiques globaux de la Suisse et dans le respect du principe de la préférence nationale; ils doivent inclure les frontaliers. Les critères déterminants pour l’octroi d’autorisations de séjour sont en particulier la demande d’un employeur, la capacité d’intégration et une source de revenus suffisante et autonome.
4 Aucun traité international contraire au présent article ne sera conclu.
5 La loi règle les modalités.
It states there are going to be quotas and it states that the law will regulate the modalities.

it does not state they cannot vary in time, that canton cannot be limited in applying them (thresshold between 0 and +infinite) and that the EU shall not be taken into consideration.

I mean, a very generic text has a tremendous amount of loopholes. And the ones mentioned will be for certain the variables on which they will play the game.

From the perspective of the EU, I am sure that a country that is always open somehow, but with limitation on where to establish, is quite better than a country that limits everything nomatterwhat.
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Old 19.02.2014, 00:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Oh dear...you had to ask for it...
Did you know the impact of the financial crisis in Europe have been severe and far-reaching. Billions of dollars have been loaned out to struggling countries; banks have turned belly up as they are unable to pay back debts; elections have been won and lost; “austerity” and “bailout” have become household words. Another round of bank bailouts may be needed sooner rather than later, with Slovenia projected by some analysts to become the next victim of the banking plague.
The problem is that several of the countries that have received aid money are continuing to struggle even as the rest of Europe picks up...slightly. The five main ones are:


Cyprus: The country’s largest bank, Bank of Cyprus, went through a major period of restructuring, while the country’s second largest bank, Cyprus Popular Bank, had to be shut down entirely for a period in order to prevent a run in. And more bailout is on the way.


Ireland: The bailout total for the country came to some 85 billion Euros, 22 million euros of which were provided by the International Monetary Fund — that’s more than 10 times the amount that has been projected for Cyprus.


Portugal: The sum of money requested from international organizations by Portugal totals 78 billion euros. Though slightly less than the Irish sum, Portugal felt the need for international aid when rising bond rates made it virtually impossible for the country to raise the funds that it needed to cover its budgetary needs. As unemployment rates rose, the government turned to international organizations in mid-2011.


Spain: In 2012, Spain had to turn to the European Central Bank for assistance in restructuring its financial sector. The reforms included trimming and bolstering Spain’s top three banks as well as the creation of SAREB, a so-called “bad bank” to absorb questionable and under-performing assets. The price tag for the reforms has so far come in at 41 billion euros. However, since 100 billion euros was approved for the country in 2012r, it is possible that the sum will increase before the end of the crisis. With debt levels approaching 100% gross domestic product and unemployment levels still well over 25 percent, Spain still has a long way to go before it’s out of the woods.


Greece: Greece, comes as no surprise to anyone familiar with the European debt crisis. Facing massive budget shortfalls and the prospect of defaulting on its government debt, Greece has so far required two bailout programs from its so-called troika of international lenders. The worst part of the situation in Greece is that the situation is still far from showing a tangible improvement. The latest unemployment data shows an increase in rates to nearly 28%, with some organizations projecting that the rate could reach the mid 30s a few years down the road.


Need I go on? France is barely hanging on, Luxembourg seems to be doing OK....however, the so-called BIG players in the EU are broke with newer less financially stable countries being added to the milieu! In fact, the other countries don't really count too much, they have to run home to momma....Germany! Oh, by the way, Switzerland didn't need a bailout though not a part "officially" of the EU anyways. Thank-goodness for that!
yes this is clearly all 28 states...


Switzerland is doing great now during the financial crisis due to the bilaterals, that's why it is so incredible stupid to jeopardize parts of these now, it would have been better to wait for the economic in europe to stabilize (don't worry the ship won't sink), and then the immigration will self-regulate, it happened before...it's a win-win situation, instead of now with the lose-lose situation...

trust me I want what is best for Switzerland, being against this initiative doesn't mean that you want it worse...and 50% of the Swiss concur...

SVP played their BS political agenda, people bought it - end of story...
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Old 19.02.2014, 00:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Neutral I would say...which is great for me, we Swedes don't like enforced commitments and relationships

For me it's a great thing seeing smaller villages really profiting from the Bilaterals, even though it has some "minor" drawbacks (e.g. crowded, queues), but the opposite isn't that great either...

I remember in Sweden after the good old days were gone (before joining EU in the early 90s), where villages died out - companies & major industries moved to the citites, shops, banks, public transportation closed etc, I don't want that to happen to villages here...
Hehe, ever been to places where they used "Switzerland", "Swiss", "Sweden" and "Swedish" interchangeably? I think if you told them you're a Swede living in Switzerland and that they're two different countries, you'd blow their minds!

To your point, I don't think anyone really wants that the small towns "die out" or the economy to collapse. At the same time it does not seem prudent to have no control over this growth. Nothing can grow forever, so I'd rather have a steady, lower rate of growth than an explosive growth with the risk of an implosion at the end...
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Old 19.02.2014, 00:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Neutral I would say...which is great for me, we Swedes don't like enforced commitments and relationships

For me it's a great thing seeing smaller villages really profiting from the Bilaterals, even though it has some "minor" drawbacks (e.g. crowded, queues), but the opposite isn't that great either...

I remember in Sweden after the good old days were gone (before joining EU in the early 90s), where villages died out - companies & major industries moved to the citites, shops, banks, public transportation closed etc, I don't want that to happen to villages here...

Gee we finally are on the same wavelengt
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Old 19.02.2014, 01:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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We will see what happens...many of you come with your theories and such, but those theories NEVER defeat the fact that Switzerland is a small country but a BIG player on the world map...Period!
Wrong.

Switzerland is big considering its size, but small in comparison to the EU, and tiny in comparison to the whole world.

Last edited by J2488; 19.02.2014 at 01:19.
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Old 19.02.2014, 01:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Let's go about the initiative text shall we?

It states there are going to be quotas and it states that the law will regulate the modalities.

it does not state they cannot vary in time, that canton cannot be limited in applying them (thresshold between 0 and +infinite) and that the EU shall not be taken into consideration.

I mean, a very generic text has a tremendous amount of loopholes. And the ones mentioned will be for certain the variables on which they will play the game.

From the perspective of the EU, I am sure that a country that is always open somehow, but with limitation on where to establish, is quite better than a country that limits everything nomatterwhat.
Once again in French, then:
Le nombre des autorisations délivrées pour le séjour des étrangers en Suisse est limité par des plafonds et des contingents annuels. Les plafonds valent pour toutes les autorisations délivrées en vertu du droit des étrangers, domaine de l’asile inclus. Le droit au séjour durable, au regroupement familial et aux prestations sociales peut être limité.

And even if this was not the case, their are still the bilaterals.
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Old 19.02.2014, 01:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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We will see what happens...many of you come with your theories and such, but those theories NEVER defeat the fact that Switzerland is a small country but a BIG player on the world map...Period!
Switzerland - 40,000 km2
Earth - 510,000,000 km2
(0.0000784%)
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bundesrat, immigration, immigration cap, masseneinwanderung, mei, politics




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