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Old 27.10.2015, 11:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I hate SVP, pure garbage. Switzerland is rich because of Auslenders money. They took all.money from Hitler, Tito, Gadafi. Everyone who puts money in their bank and ends up in jail or dead, that money is now in Swiss hands.
You don't understand how bank deposits work, do you?

Tom
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Old 27.10.2015, 11:25
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I hate SVP, pure garbage. Switzerland is rich because of Auslenders money. They took all.money from Hitler, Tito, Gadafi. Everyone who puts money in their bank and ends up in jail or dead, that money is now in Swiss hands.
You do realize Frank Sinatra had mafia ties, don't you?
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Old 27.10.2015, 11:27
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You don't understand how bank deposits work, do you?

Tom
Dear Tome before 50,60 years Switzerland was not this rich. And now is because of other people money. During word war 2 they would take money from jews and send them back to hitler.
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  #2944  
Old 27.10.2015, 11:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I hate SVP, pure garbage. Switzerland is rich because of Auslenders money. They took all.money from Hitler, Tito, Gadafi. Everyone who puts money in their bank and ends up in jail or dead, that money is now in Swiss hands.
So even Hitler got Switzerlanded? He must have been Führious when he found out.

But if anything good came of it, it is that we learnt not to trust money lenders. Not even aus lenders.
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Old 27.10.2015, 11:32
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So even Hitler got Switzerlanded? He must have been Führious when he found out.

But if anything good came of it, it is that we learnt not to trust money lenders. Not even aus lenders.
I didnt say that. I said some of his money was here. In Swiss banks.
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Old 27.10.2015, 11:34
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It won't pass, as they will need a double majority.

Tom
Yeah, I don't think they'll make it either. I expected to see an effort to get an initiative going before now, but I guess they were waiting to see if the EU were willing to negotiate or not. Bit silly if they were as it was obvious that the EU would never compromise on the issue.
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Old 27.10.2015, 11:34
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I didnt say that. I said some of his money was here. In Swiss banks.
Nonsense, unless he was trying to hide it from himself.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of Ol' Blue Eyes's money was here, however.

Tom
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Old 27.10.2015, 11:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yeah, I don't think they'll make it either. I expected to see an effort to get an initiative going before now, but I guess they were waiting to see if the EU were willing to negotiate or not. Bit silly if they were as it was obvious that the EU would never compromise on the issue.
The entire handling of this by Bern has been a mess from day one.
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Old 27.10.2015, 11:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Nonsense, unless he was trying to hide it from himself.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of Ol' Blue Eyes's money was here, however.

Tom
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Old 27.10.2015, 13:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yeah, I don't think they'll make it either. I expected to see an effort to get an initiative going before now, but I guess they were waiting to see if the EU were willing to negotiate or not. Bit silly if they were as it was obvious that the EU would never compromise on the issue.
Considering this is the issue dividing the EU at the moment, with the Eastern European countries and refugees, and is also the main sticking point for Cameron and Brexit, and then the shift to the right taking place just about everywhere else, it somewhat clear that the EU's collective bargaining stance on immigration is under pressure and should be re-evaluated.

The other countries may find itself in synch with Swiss voters in the fullness of time. The Bundesrat need not do anything drastic at the moment. They need to leverage a tipping point when it arrives.

The EU may crack up and hatch something different within the year, and there is the Brexit referendum. Best to sit and wait, imo.
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Old 27.10.2015, 13:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So even Hitler got Switzerlanded? He must have been Führious when he found out.
But if anything good came of it, it is that we learnt not to trust money lenders. Not even aus lenders.
Ha ha… he probably got, eventually.

I wondered where did "Waschmaschine und Tumbler zur Mitbenutzung in der Waschküche" (washing machine and dryer for shared use in the laundry room) come from.
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Old 27.10.2015, 13:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You do realize Frank Sinatra had mafia ties, don't you?
Thought he always wore bow ties
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  #2953  
Old 27.10.2015, 13:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Considering this is the issue dividing the EU at the moment, with the Eastern European countries and refugees, and is also the main sticking point for Cameron and Brexit, and then the shift to the right taking place just about everywhere else, it somewhat clear that the EU's collective bargaining stance on immigration is under pressure and should be re-evaluated.

The other countries may find itself in synch with Swiss voters in the fullness of time. The Bundesrat need not do anything drastic at the moment. They need to leverage a tipping point when it arrives.

The EU may crack up and hatch something different within the year, and there is the Brexit referendum. Best to sit and wait, imo.
I have been thinking the same thing, and am actually surprised at the rate at which Merkel is happily amd apparently blissfully banging nails into the EU's coffin lid, and seems blind to the new enemies she is making.

But it's still too early to wager Switzerland's future on the imminent collapse of the EU experiment. The Germans may yet decide to throw Merkel under the bus and bring in somebody who is more interested in sustainable solutions and less in their own Messianic destiny. Junker's position is not much more sustainable either. He's a yes man with no teeth and if push comes to shove he'd rather hide in the closet than stand his corner. The deadline for renogitation of the bilaterals is a hard one on the Swiss side so an exit strategy is required in case things don't fall apart quickly enough.

For a start, Bern needs to stop sending the nice guys to Brussels and needs to start sending the Blocherites. Either they get what they want, and all is well, or they fail but then then the onus is on them to provide an alternative. But you can't have a group win a referedum and then exclude them from the implementation.
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Old 27.10.2015, 13:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Thought he always wore bow ties
He did things his way.
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Old 27.10.2015, 14:15
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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For a start, Bern needs to stop sending the nice guys to Brussels and needs to start sending the Blocherites. Either they get what they want, and all is well, or they fail but then then the onus is on them to provide an alternative. But you can't have a group win a referedum and then exclude them from the implementation.
I haven't been following the matter close enough, but, since the EU is not renegotiating, what would these Blocherites be proposing?

I just checked SVP's newsletter from last September and apart from childish scribbles of scary minarets, foreigners in a hammock and black sheeps I couldn't for the life of me find a thorough policy, i.e., contemplating all possibilities for treating such a matter with no less than the ReichsEU.
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Old 27.10.2015, 14:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I haven't been following the matter close enough, but, since the EU is not renegotiating, what would these Blocherites be proposing?

I just checked SVP's newsletter from last September and apart from childish scribbles of scary minarets, foreigners in a hammock and black sheeps I couldn't for the life of me find a thorough policy, i.e., contemplating all possibilities for treating such a matter with no less than the ReichsEU.
I think in the world of diplomacy there are different ways to do things.

Just because you close the door on renegotiating a treaty, does not mean you close the door on renogiating the interpretation or implementation of that treaty. This sort of almost Vaticanesque or Sir Humphreyesque splitting of hairs is what allows both sides to leave the negotiating room claiming victory. And Switzerland is talking to the the EU all the time about numerous topics, so the "we're not talking, period" point of view is not really as ultimate as it sounds.

Having said that, the normal thing in Switzerland is that you involve the initiators of a referendum in its implementation. In the case of the bilaterals this was not done. One of the reasons you involve the initiators is that if it all blows up in your face, then the initiators get some of the egg in their own face and will maybe be more amenable to accepting they attempted the impossible and agree to seeking an exit strategy. By keeping the SVP firmly away from any negotiating table and hence any ownership or responsibility, the rest of the government has effectively created a situation where SVP can blame them for the failure of the negotiation. Not very smart.
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Old 27.10.2015, 14:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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For a start, Bern needs to stop sending the nice guys to Brussels and needs to start sending the Blocherites. Either they get what they want, and all is well, or they fail but then then the onus is on them to provide an alternative. But you can't have a group win a referedum and then exclude them from the implementation.
That sounds like an appropriate thing to do: Afterall, they authored the referendum. And it would be better for them to be engaged upfront to and own the issue, rather than sit back and agitate forever. The outcome may be more credible if it had SVP input.

When exactly is the deadline, and what is it a deadline for?
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Old 27.10.2015, 14:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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That sounds like an appropriate thing to do: Afterall, they authored the referendum. And it would be better for them to be engaged upfront to and own the issue, rather than sit back and agitate forever. The outcome may be more credible if it had SVP input.

When exactly is the deadline, and what is it a deadline for?
Not sure of the exact deadline but its something like three years. If the initiative hasn't been implemented by then the government risks being in contempt of a democratic decision and SVP could take them to court. I'm not aware of there being any precedent in history so can't say what the consequences might be. Impeachment maybe?
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Old 27.10.2015, 15:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Sending the SVP to the negotiations reminds me of Tsipras getting elected the 1st time. He was supposed to sort it out, and guess what, he just f-ed it even worse. OK we tell ourselves that it was his fault and that he showed his true face and his incompetence, but what good does that make? He's still PM and GR is still neck-deep.



Giving SVP a responsibility does not mean that they will deliver, it only means that someone else can blame the SVP if/when it hits the fan.

And if it does hit the fan, I think that blaming will be of little consolation.
Unfortunately the circumstances are not in favour of the current effort, and people's short mindedness is definitely not helping. For years and years the EU is helping everyone grow, and when there are problems instead of talking about fixing them, everybody's ready to leave.
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Old 27.10.2015, 15:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Not sure of the exact deadline but its something like three years. If the initiative hasn't been implemented by then the government risks being in contempt of a democratic decision and SVP could take them to court.
Sound like something that should not be done in haste. There ought to be a recourse for the government to lay out the implications and give everybody another look at the situation.

I think there are sentiments and political objectives in this issue that are not in the best interests of everybody. Some would simply love to see Switzerland get reprimanded for its direct democracy. They hate it because they don't have it. Others feel they want to settle a score with the SVP. And then there are those who would want to get out of the EU and maintain status quo at all cost, even with damage to the Swiss economy. It would be better to spell out repercussions either way and perhaps have another go at another vote.

This one that just came out seems out of tempo. It may be a little premature. Perhaps they ought to retract it for a more robust discussion and referendum later.

We need some kind of collective bargaining position against the EU with some leverage. Something that includes the UK and the Visegrad states. Perhaps if Merkel keeps pushing for compulsory refugee distribution, maybe something like it would be justified.
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