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Old 30.11.2015, 10:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It seems from the latest news that there is a solution in sight after all, and that the Bundesrat think they can introduce a cap either with or without the EUs express approval without invalidating any bilateral.
There's no solution without invalidating the bilaterals. There are still the same two options:

1. The EU agrees to caps and that's that.
2. The EU doesn't agree to caps and Switzerland implements them anyway.

The current refugee crisis means good fortune for Switzerland - after all that happened in the last few months, the EU won't be saying anything, no matter what Switzerland does - simply because most EU countries want similar measures for themselves.

Btw: unfortunately, the caps might be stricter than expected, as Switzerland is in a recession right now and unemployment is very high (4.8%) by Swiss standards.
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Old 30.11.2015, 10:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The current refugee crisis means good fortune for Switzerland - after all that happened in the last few months, the EU won't be saying anything, no matter what Switzerland does - simply because most EU countries want similar measures for themselves.
With a brexit threatening, and the EU prepared to fight tooth and nail to not let that happen, and the pro brexit folks saying, look, if Switzerland can do it, so can we, I think the EU has every reason to be tough on Switzerland.
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Old 30.11.2015, 10:42
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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With a brexit threatening
that's not happening.
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Old 30.11.2015, 11:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It seems from the latest news that there is a solution in sight after all, and that the Bundesrat think they can introduce a cap either with or without the EUs express approval without invalidating any bilateral.

Hallelujah!!
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Old 30.11.2015, 11:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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There's no solution without invalidating the bilaterals. There are still the same two options:

1. The EU agrees to caps and that's that.
2. The EU doesn't agree to caps and Switzerland implements them anyway.

The current refugee crisis means good fortune for Switzerland - after all that happened in the last few months, the EU won't be saying anything, no matter what Switzerland does - simply because most EU countries want similar measures for themselves.

Btw: unfortunately, the caps might be stricter than expected, as Switzerland is in a recession right now and unemployment is very high (4.8%) by Swiss standards.

There is no evidence of a link between "Masseneinwanderung " and unemployment. Although many people believe that if there is a restriction then suddenly unemployed Swiss farm boys and girls will be eligible for the current medical doctor vacancies and will also be able to look for PHD jobs.
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Old 30.11.2015, 11:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It seems from the latest news that there is a solution in sight after all, and that the Bundesrat think they can introduce a cap either with or without the EUs express approval without invalidating any bilateral.
Interesting! Do you have any link to any newspaper to know more about it? Thanks!
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Old 30.11.2015, 11:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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There is no evidence of a link between "Masseneinwanderung " and unemployment. Although many people believe that if there is a restriction then suddenly unemployed Swiss farm boys and girls will be eligible for the current medical doctor vacancies and will also be able to look for PHD jobs.
Maybe not in the extreme way you describe, but I am seeing plenty of cases of inflated requirements, such as a Master's degree being required as a minimum to replace a retiring guy whose only education in his day was the Stifti. And I'm talking about a job that is mostly about assembling stuff in the lab and performing and documenting lab tests according to instructions provided by others, so no especially high level of initiative or deeper understanding required.
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Old 30.11.2015, 11:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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There's no solution without invalidating the bilaterals. There are still the same two options:

1. The EU agrees to caps and that's that.
2. The EU doesn't agree to caps and Switzerland implements them anyway.
There is a third option, which I'm surprised no one has mentioned although I'm not sure whether the numbers would crunch. Switzerland does not implement caps on EU citizens and instead implements tough caps on non-EU citizens to achieve the desired quotas.
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  #3009  
Old 30.11.2015, 11:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Interesting! Do you have any link to any newspaper to know more about it? Thanks!
it was in today's 20 Minuten, but i can't find the article online unfortunately.
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  #3010  
Old 30.11.2015, 11:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Interesting! Do you have any link to any newspaper to know more about it? Thanks!
http://www.swissinfo.ch/ita/-immigra...icina/41808382

Tom
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  #3011  
Old 30.11.2015, 11:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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it was in today's 20 Minuten, but i can't find the article online unfortunately.
Is this not it?
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Old 30.11.2015, 12:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It seems from the latest news that there is a solution in sight after all, and that the Bundesrat think they can introduce a cap either with or without the EUs express approval without invalidating any bilateral.
Legally, can the EU actually say anything about what Switzerland does if it has not had the effect of limiting immigration? They can't really really say the bilateral has been broken until the first person is denied immigration, or can they?

Also, aren't there other methods of accomplishing the same effect? For example, can the cantons or communities impose a limit on how many they register and allow to migrate, without the Federal government's involvement?
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  #3013  
Old 30.11.2015, 12:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Legally, can the EU actually say anything about what Switzerland does if it has not had the effect of limiting immigration? They can't really really say the bilateral has been broken until the first person is denied immigration, or can they?
They, as well as Switzerland, can cancel the bilaterals anytime, no reason needed. Today, tomorrow, next month, next year, who knows. Cancelation period is 6 months.
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Old 30.11.2015, 12:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Legally, can the EU actually say anything about what Switzerland does if it has not had the effect of limiting immigration? They can't really really say the bilateral has been broken until the first person is denied immigration, or can they?

Also, aren't there other methods of accomplishing the same effect? For example, can the cantons or communities impose a limit on how many they register and allow to migrate, without the Federal government's involvement?
I understand immigration law is a federal matter and I don't think cantons can take things into their own hands without causing a major constitutional crisis.

A German friend of mine (who was educated in a Swiss boarding school) claims there are laws that still permit certain villages to expel a citizen (even if he's Swiss) if the rest of the village doesn't like him. I have been unable to find any corroboration of that from any reliable source so think its most likely urban legend.
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Old 30.11.2015, 12:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Maybe not in the extreme way you describe, but I am seeing plenty of cases of inflated requirements, such as a Master's degree being required as a minimum to replace a retiring guy whose only education in his day was the Stifti. And I'm talking about a job that is mostly about assembling stuff in the lab and performing and documenting lab tests according to instructions provided by others, so no especially high level of initiative or deeper understanding required.

They do not even need to be able to read and write
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Old 30.11.2015, 12:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The reason I ask this is ... if an agreement between two parties is causing more harm to one than to the other (proportionately speaking) this would seem fair grounds for the party suffering more harm to call for a revision of the agreement. And if the party less harmed by the agreement refuses to take on sensible revisions it would be them who is doing the greatest amount of "cherry-picking" and not the party being disproportionately and unfairly harmed. IMHO
Why would such revisions be 'sensible'? Why is one side being 'unfairly' harmed? By who's definition?
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Old 30.11.2015, 13:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Maybe not in the extreme way you describe, but I am seeing plenty of cases of inflated requirements, such as a Master's degree being required as a minimum to replace a retiring guy whose only education in his day was the Stifti. And I'm talking about a job that is mostly about assembling stuff in the lab and performing and documenting lab tests according to instructions provided by others, so no especially high level of initiative or deeper understanding required.
Well, a friend of mine back in my home Country, now almost retiring, made it to be a mid-level manager in a bank, even if he started with a simple "diploma in surveying", and dropped of University the first year. He had started just as a branch agent; being hired for that low-level position with his degree today in a bank is unthinkable. And I believe that is mainstream.
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Old 30.11.2015, 13:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Cancelation period is 6 months.
But only if notice is given on the last day of March, June or September, and absolutely no cancellations accepted in December.
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Old 30.11.2015, 13:25
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Mainstream or not, society needs signals to understand certain things about people. Education and experience are, generally speaking, the two strongest signals regarding employment potential of a person.

Yes it might be imperfect (or even flawed in many cases) but it is the best we have so we're kind of sticking with it.

A person with no experience and no training can't go and fill a vacancy for doctors because "he's really hardworking" and/or because "x was never trained but he kicks ass".

Is there an inflation in required qualifications? Probably yes.
Does this mean that the whole systems is flawed. Probably yes, but not (only) for this reason.
Does it mean the system doesn't work? No because one way or another firms are making money employing people in this way.
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Old 30.11.2015, 13:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Mainstream or not, society needs signals to understand certain things about people. Education and experience are, generally speaking, the two strongest signals regarding employment potential of a person.

Yes it might be imperfect (or even flawed in many cases) but it is the best we have so we're kind of sticking with it.

A person with no experience and no training can't go and fill a vacancy for doctors because "he's really hardworking" and/or because "x was never trained but he kicks ass".

Is there an inflation in required qualifications? Probably yes.
Does this mean that the whole systems is flawed. Probably yes, but not (only) for this reason.
Does it mean the system doesn't work? No because one way or another firms are making money employing people in this way.
I agree. I have my own belief that since many positions like plumber or electrician in Switzerland require highly-skilled candidates, and expensive in-depth courses, many intelligent people feel an "intellectual incentive" in stuying and learning for those and not for other kinds of jobs. Whereas in other Countries, people with that level of intelligence are more incentivated to study towards positions like engineer, academic, physician, for which in Switzerland there's a shortage of candidates.

That is why I believe, whereas there is absolutely no shortage of "intelligent people" in Switzerland (let's not forget the highest number of Nobels per capita, for what it can count...), there is indeed a shortage of intelligent people with degrees for higher level positions.

I mean, a friend of mine from Brazil wanted to do some job during the winter vacations packing presents at a local store, and she gave up because they required her to make a 5'000 CHF intensive course in "present packing". Or for instance in this forum I remember having read of an expat mother asking for a someone available to hire her son as a dog sitter, and the poeple of the forum letting her notice that you need a qualifications to walk the dogs of the ohters...

Having highliy intelligent people working in positions as plumber, mechanics or electricians is surely a guarantee of quality, and is surely a benefit. But when none of them works for being a physician because they don't feel a higher intellectual incentive, the necessary consequence is that if the market needs more physicians, it looks for them elsewhere.

In Italy for instance exactly the reverse has been happening. Romanians are taking those positions because the most intelligent people went to University (so there's an inflation of highly-skilled people, low salaries etc.).
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