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  #381  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:28
EAB EAB is offline
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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There is an animosity of Blocher and the SVP against the rest of the people. The initiative is dangerous and wrong, even if not everything is wrong. He and his SVP want to isolate the country from outside and to liquidate everything social
Can you explain why the initiative is "dangerous and wrong"?
Can you explain why you think the SVP has animosity against the Swiss people?
Can you explain why you think that the SVP want to isolate Switzerland from the outside world and what you mean by saying that they want to "liquidate everything"?
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  #382  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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But even though the Swiss police may have more "tools" as you put it, isn't it true that crime in Switzerland has risen somewhat dramatically following the FMOP being adopted!? And is it not true that even though immigrants are a minority in Switzerland, they also account for a majority in Swiss jails!? So overall, while the Swiss police have more tools at their disposal has Switzerland on the whole actually become a safer country!?

People have also told me that if the initiative is past there will be higher costs associated with border personnel etc ...
But what about all the immigrants sitting in Swiss jails - does that not cost a heap of money to the Swiss tax-payer too!? What about the added staffing required to deal with increased numbers of illegal immigrants and those taking advantage of the FMOP agreement - does that not also cost something!?
And even if it were to cost more to the Swiss taxpayer for the nation to have independent control over immigration, would not this be worth it for the added benefits of less poverty, less crime, more safety etc... !?

... Or am I just getting this all wrong ...

About "would not this be worth it for the added benefits of less poverty, less crime, more safety etc... "
You have been listening to propoganda again
Do you have any facts to support this fantasy?
Or do you think that highly qualified EU immigrants with permits are living in poverty and committing crimes.
Or what do you think is the objective of this initiative - everybody else thinks it is about reducing the number of permits issued?


About "What about the added staffing required to deal with increased numbers of illegal immigrants "


Please explain how passing "Masseneinwanderung Stoppen" will reduce the number of illegal immigrants - surely it will increase the number of illegals if the number of permits is reduced but the demand for workers is not reduced.
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  #383  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Why are immigrants not given bail? Does it have anything to do with their financial standing?
Also regardless of why they are in jail the fact still remains that it is a drain to the economy - and this drain (in 2013 74.3%) is not due to Swiss nationals but to foreigners.

Thanks for agreeing the statistics are misleading.


About "Why are immigrants not given bail? Does it have anything to do with their financial standing? "
No nothing to do with their finances; it is due to the perceived risk they will not stay around until their trial.


About "this drain (in 2013 74.3%) is not due to Swiss nationals but to foreigners" - actually it is due to Swiss nationals who decide not to give bail.
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  #384  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:35
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "would not this be worth it for the added benefits of less poverty, less crime, more safety etc... "
You have been listening to propoganda again
Do you have any facts to support this fantasy?
Or do you think that highly qualified EU immigrants with permits are living in poverty and committing crimes.
Or what do you think is the objective of this initiative - everybody else thinks it is about reducing the number of permits issued?


About "What about the added staffing required to deal with increased numbers of illegal immigrants "


Please explain how passing "Masseneinwanderung Stoppen" will reduce the number of illegal immigrants - surely it will increase the number of illegals if the number of permits is reduced but the demand for workers is not reduced.
I think you are willfully and purposely misrepresenting what I said. I never said that "highly qualified EU immigrants with permits are living in poverty and committing crimes.".

It will stem the flow of tens-of-thousands of people entering the country willy-nilly, some of whom have skills, but others (probably most) who have no-to-low-skills. These people end up overstaying their 3 months and don't bother many times with getting the extension permit for another 3 months - they then end up living on some form of Swiss welfare or taking up space in homeless shelters etc.

I know this because I know people in the Social Welfare system as well as people working in the homeless shelters who deal frequently with police and immigrants.
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  #385  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Thanks for agreeing the statistics are misleading.
I did not agree to misleading statistics. I would appreciate you not putting words into my mouth!

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About "Why are immigrants not given bail? Does it have anything to do with their financial standing? "
No nothing to do with their finances; it is due to the perceived risk they will not stay around until their trial.
Well that perceived risk probably has some validity. - Unless you want to now start questioning the entire police and judicial system here ... So I have no pity there.

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About "this drain (in 2013 74.3%) is not due to Swiss nationals but to foreigners" - actually it is due to Swiss nationals who decide not to give bail.
Please explain how that makes any sense!?
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  #386  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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If this is true (which it seems to be) then it's very important info! All this hype about Switzerland going down the proverbial economic drain seems to amount to not much more than fud - no!?

What I see at stake (and I may be wrong) is the longterm economic and social well being of Switzerland, I just don't see how continuing without nationally controlled immigration can provide this. - Especially with the economic upheaval that exists all around Switzerland!

So why is it that so many Swiss people are not in favor of the initiative? - Is it because they dislike the SVP!?
There is no economic upheaval in Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Elsass, Burgundy, Savoy, Piemonte, Lombardia, Veneto or the whole of Austria. Neither in Rheinland-Pfalz or Hessen or Normandy or Bretagne or the whole of the Netherlands. Foreigners who do not earn money are not supported unless they have had a job in Switzerland. All the talk of the SVP about Switzerland going down the drain unless limits are strengthened is just political propaganda
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  #387  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:39
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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But the situation is not as clear as you think according to Swissinfo
more specific to this

Are migrants funding Swiss pensions?
According to a report from the Federal Social Insurance Office, between 2001 and 2010 the proportion contributed to old age security, the cornerstone of the Swiss pension system, by European Union citizens rose from 18.5% to 22%. The proportion contributed by the Swiss themselves fell from 75.2% to 72.8%.

In 2012, European citizens received only 15% of old age security benefits paid. At present, however, the federal government finds it “impossible to make a precise and accurate forecast” of the effects of immigration on future costs of pensions.

(Source: Federal Social Insurance Office)

According to statistics published last week (see link below) Ausländer(in) pay 26% of the total AHV & IV contributions but only receive 17%of the benefits.


So thank you to all the JA voters who will bring about up to a 10% increase in AHV & IV contributions to fill the gap.


http://www.blick.ch/incoming/migrati...id2629693.html


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  #388  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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There is no economic upheaval in Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Elsass, Burgundy, Savoy, Piemonte, Lombardia, Veneto or the whole of Austria. Neither in Rheinland-Pfalz or Hessen or Normandy or Bretagne or the whole of the Netherlands.
But that is a relatively small fraction of the entire EU - no!? And besides most of the immigrants that end up without work, shelter etc in Switzerland are not from Austria, Germany or the Netherlands - are they!?

Quote:
All the talk of the SVP about Switzerland going down the drain unless limits are strengthened is just political propaganda
Perhaps they extend it out a little too far - but I don't think it is entirely "political propaganda".

What I would realyl like to know is what is so "dangerous and wrong" about the initiative!?
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  #389  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "even though immigrants are a minority in Switzerland, they also account for a majority in Swiss jails"


As discussed before, this is not comparing like with like.
Usually Swiss people accused of crime are given bail so wait for their trial outside of jail (even in the case of a neighbour of mine who killed somebody).
Usually immigrants do not get bail and so sit in jail waiting for their trial. This means many more immigrants in jail so influencing the statistics and please remember all of those awaiting trial are innocent until proven guilty.

A majority of all who get a criminal record are people of below 30 years
A majority of all CH nationals are ABOVE 30 years
And yes, in most countries, foreigners accused of crime have to go to prison until the court decision
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  #390  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I think you are willfully and purposely misrepresenting what I said. I never said that "highly qualified EU immigrants with permits are living in poverty and committing crimes.".

It will stem the flow of tens-of-thousands of people entering the country willy-nilly, some of whom have skills, but others (probably most) who have no-to-low-skills. These people end up overstaying their 3 months and don't bother many times with getting the extension permit for another 3 months - they then end up living on some form of Swiss welfare or taking up space in homeless shelters etc.

I know this because I know people in the Social Welfare system as well as people working in the homeless shelters who deal frequently with police and immigrants.

Please explain what all this has to do with "Masseneinwanderung Stoppen"?

There is nothing in this initiative about new measures to stop illegal immigrants - it is all about "Personenfreizügigkeit" and reducing the number of legal immigrants. Exactly the people you say are contributing to poverty, crime, etc.?


Please quote any sentences in the proposal which talk about reducing illegal immigrants, for example, increased border controls, increased border guards, etc.
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  #391  
Old 30.01.2014, 13:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I did not agree to misleading statistics. I would appreciate you not putting words into my mouth!



Well that perceived risk probably has some validity. - Unless you want to now start questioning the entire police and judicial system here ... So I have no pity there.



Please explain how that makes any sense!?

About "I did not agree to misleading statistics. "


You did agree that the high number of foreigners in jail (versus Swiss) is because of the different bail conditions which causes misleading statistics.
To compare like with like we should compare the number/percentage of foreigners accused of crimes with the number of Swiss accused of crimes so we have a fair comparison; it is misleading to look at the number in jail.
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  #392  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:02
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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But it does have very good access to the EU labour market. Precisely what this would reduce.
Of course

A) the Swiss economy will be forced to recruit personnel outside the EU, and to get approvals from the bureaucracy for every single job

B) lots of the newcomers will be NON-Europeans with a lower acceptance rate among the locals. And if I speak about problems in this regard I mean problems with the locals
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  #393  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:08
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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According to statistics published last week (see link below) Ausländer(in) pay 26% of the total AHV & IV contributions but only receive 17%of the benefits.


So thank you to all the JA voters who will bring about up to a 10% increase in AHV & IV contributions to fill the gap.


http://www.blick.ch/incoming/migrati...id2629693.html
And how much will AHV or IV pay in the future to foreign workforce in Switzerland?
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  #394  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Please explain what all this has to do with "Masseneinwanderung Stoppen"?

There is nothing in this initiative about new measures to stop illegal immigrants - it is all about "Personenfreizügigkeit" and reducing the number of legal immigrants. Exactly the people you say are contributing to poverty, crime, etc.?


Please quote any sentences in the proposal which talk about reducing illegal immigrants, for example, increased border controls, increased border guards, etc.
You would think this to be pretty obvious ... but let me give it a try for you ...
AFAIK,
Right not there are tens of thousands of people every year sweeping across the borders without so much as a "how do ya do". Some find work, some don't. Those who don't sometimes go back to their countries, some bum out at some friends or relatives place for a while, and others end up at homeless shelters and leeching off the Swiss system (yes, many homeless shelters are subsidized by the Swiss taxpayer) and/or commiting crime and end up in jail being a cost to the Swiss taxpayer.

What the initiative does is present to opportunity for the Swiss people to decide that any non-Swiss wishing to enter their country must present a valid reason for doing so. This is completely normal in many places in the world - including Australia!

So people who wish to enter must either be a tourist, be accepted by an educational institution, or be employed by a Swiss company (exceptional allowances for medical requirements etc ... of course). Naturally this means that the percentage of non-skilled or low-skilled people entering Switzerland will decrease. Switzerland can take what it wishes and leave what it has no need of. As it is right now there are too many unskilled immigrants in Switzerland (or so I have been told by a friend who works in construction and agriculture).

Still with me!?

Also naturally when there are immigration laws set down it is glaringly obvious that "increased border controls, increased border guards" will be in order. Why would the initiative have to spell all that out!?

But to be honest with you, I don't think you really care to have your mind changed - and honestly neither do I (Unless someone were to clearly and factually display how the initiative is more harmful to the Swiss people than it is helpful). I have talked to too many Swiss people about everyday experiences to know that the initiative is better than it is worse.
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  #395  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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You did agree that the high number of foreigners in jail (versus Swiss) is because of the different bail conditions which causes misleading statistics.
Sorry, I did not mean for you to take that as me agreeing - but more as "well if that is true then ....". As it is I have no idea what the bail conditions are etc ...
But as was accurately mentioned before already, it is normal for foreigners to be held without bail before their trial.

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it is misleading to look at the number in jail.
Absolutely not! - The number in jail is not ONLY about them being in jail, but more-so perhaps the cost that is being incurred by so many foreigners in jail! So in 2013 over 74% of the jailing costs were attributed to foreigners - That is the Swiss taxpayer paying for something we have no desire for! Simple as that!
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  #396  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:17
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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And how much will AHV or IV pay in the future to foreign workforce in Switzerland?

Who knows, even the Govt refuses to speculate??
My assumption is much more will be paid to the Swiss in the future since the average age of the Swiss is much higher than the average age of the foreigners?


Anyway it is not relevant - essentially social security here (like most countries) is a "Ponzi" scheme; that means they pay out each year what they collect, there is no building of a decent reserve for the future.
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  #397  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:31
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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Of course

A) the Swiss economy will be forced to recruit personnel outside the EU, and to get approvals from the bureaucracy for every single job
As I don t really believe the Swiss economy will stop spinning and borders will be closed after this vote, I guess there will be somehow more bureaucracy but also more tolerance for lower wages...who would expect that.
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  #398  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:35
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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Tearing up the bilateral agreement will presmably also mean Swiss citizens will have to jump through additional hoops when looking for work in the EU. Probably not a big difference in placess like Zurich, but I guess it will hurt those living in border areas with e.g. Italian speakers in Tessin will find more difficulty if they want to look for work in Iraly.

Cheers,
Nick
Funniest post ever.

I don't think anyone crosses from Switzerland to Italy to work. I could find the same job I do here in Milan for about half of what I'm paid.

As Tom mentioned, the Ticinese move north not south for work. Many may return when the train journey is cut by around an hour soon.....
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Old 30.01.2014, 14:43
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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Well, for example, in total foreigners contribute a net 10% of the total Swiss Social security (total payments less total benefits) which means there is a risk of Swiss paying higher taxes to fill any gap left by any reduction in numbers of foreigners.
I don't see how this initiative would reduce the current number of foreigners.

If anything it would reduce net immigration, but probably not by as much as many Yes voters expect as the initiative does not set a fixed limit and the Swiss economy would still need foreign workers.

It would basically change two things:
  1. Foreigners could only be employed if no Swiss citizen can be found to fill a position.
  2. All foreign citizens (EU/non-EU) would be treated equal.
Besides, if you look back at the last few decades, the yearly net immigration was always positive except for a few years in the seventies.

Last edited by Mark75; 30.01.2014 at 15:09. Reason: clarification
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Old 30.01.2014, 14:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "At least in Switzerland it's highly questionable if Schengen improved safety."

Is this your opinion or do you have any facts?
I'm pretty sure that I had read on several occasions that burglaries went up quite a bit after the Schengen agreement became effective in December 2008.

However I have not been able to quickly find supporting data as what's available online from the federal statistics office seems to go back to 2009 only.

I wonder if that's a coincidence or not...
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