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Old 30.01.2014, 14:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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You would think this to be pretty obvious ... but let me give it a try for you ...
AFAIK,
Right not there are tens of thousands of people every year sweeping across the borders without so much as a "how do ya do". Some find work, some don't. Those who don't sometimes go back to their countries, some bum out at some friends or relatives place for a while, and others end up at homeless shelters and leeching off the Swiss system (yes, many homeless shelters are subsidized by the Swiss taxpayer) and/or commiting crime and end up in jail being a cost to the Swiss taxpayer.

What the initiative does is present to opportunity for the Swiss people to decide that any non-Swiss wishing to enter their country must present a valid reason for doing so. This is completely normal in many places in the world - including Australia!

So people who wish to enter must either be a tourist, be accepted by an educational institution, or be employed by a Swiss company (exceptional allowances for medical requirements etc ... of course). Naturally this means that the percentage of non-skilled or low-skilled people entering Switzerland will decrease. Switzerland can take what it wishes and leave what it has no need of. As it is right now there are too many unskilled immigrants in Switzerland (or so I have been told by a friend who works in construction and agriculture).

Still with me!?

Also naturally when there are immigration laws set down it is glaringly obvious that "increased border controls, increased border guards" will be in order. Why would the initiative have to spell all that out!?

But to be honest with you, I don't think you really care to have your mind changed - and honestly neither do I (Unless someone were to clearly and factually display how the initiative is more harmful to the Swiss people than it is helpful). I have talked to too many Swiss people about everyday experiences to know that the initiative is better than it is worse.

About " What the initiative does is present to opportunity for the Swiss people to decide that any non-Swiss wishing to enter their country must present a valid reason for doing so. This is completely normal in many places in the world - including Australia!"


I am sorry but I think you are confusing Schengen rules (Under Schengen rules EU nationals have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland) with Personenfreizügigkeit (Under Personenfreizügigkeit rules EU nationals have the right to enter, reside and work in Switzerland)


It is part of Masseneinwanderung Stoppen to change Personenfreizügigkeit here but not to change Schengen?


Some people in this thread who support Masseneinwanderung Stoppen say it is definitely not to change Schengen?


Does anybody else think this is a proposal to change Schengen (of course the EU might decide to do so from their side)?


About "when there are immigration laws set down" - the plan is to change the rules around work permits not immigration laws; of course, they are strongly linked..


About my question "Please quote any sentences in the proposal which talk about reducing illegal immigrants" - I assume you did not find anything?
You wrote "You would think this to be pretty obvious..."; not to me - I think you are assuming things that you would like to see happen but which are not specifically mentioned.
If there will be increased border guards then let us hope the costs are less than the prison costs for foreigners that you are worried about - sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease
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  #402  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I am sorry but I think you are confusing Schengen rules (Under Schengen rules EU nationals have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland)
The Schengen agreement is not about residence.
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Old 30.01.2014, 15:13
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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It is not just the the free movement of of people we are talking about here, we are talking about the whole package. And we are the ones seeking to break it up, not the EU. And the EU is just as entitled as we are to say they are not interested in negotiating new ones.

And when it comes to negotiating new agreements, we should remember that it is much more difficult today for the EU to reach agreement on their side than in the last round. It now requires the agreement of the EU parliament, the council of ministers, the commission, the national parliaments and in some cases referenda. And of course it also needs the agreement of those countries who's citizens we have been denying access to the labour markets for the past while as well. So the chances of getting them to agree any replacement treaty are not very high, let alone one that would be to their disadvantage.

On the other hand for the EU to dissolve a treaty only requires a simple majority of the council of ministers (27 ministers representing the states)
Very good points, nice to see someone bringing information and not just opinion to the debate.
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Old 30.01.2014, 15:15
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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Many may return when the train journey is cut by around an hour soon.....
When that happens, I'm going to move to Tessin myself and commute to Zug.
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Old 30.01.2014, 15:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

Is Schengen the most misunderstood political treaty ever?
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  #406  
Old 30.01.2014, 15:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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The Schengen agreement is not about residence.

If you read the link you sent to me and click through the links within that document you will find;
"Citizens of all European Union member states, the European Economic Area and Switzerland holding a valid passport or national identity card enjoy freedom of movement rights in each other's territory and can enter and reside in the each other's territory without a visa."


I made a couple of words bold for ease of understanding.


The SVP are very clever how they can get people to support their initiatives without clearly explaining what is in and what is not in; this means people can invent their own preferred versions of the initiative - which versions sadly for them will never actually be implemented.
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  #407  
Old 30.01.2014, 15:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I am sorry but I think you are confusing Schengen rules (Under Schengen rules EU nationals have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland) with Personenfreizügigkeit (Under Personenfreizügigkeit rules EU nationals have the right to enter, reside and work in Switzerland)


It is part of Masseneinwanderung Stoppen to change Personenfreizügigkeit here but not to change Schengen?


Some people in this thread who support Masseneinwanderung Stoppen say it is definitely not to change Schengen?


Does anybody else think this is a proposal to change Schengen (of course the EU might decide to do so from their side)?
AFAIK the FMOP is something which exists inside the Schengen zone. Can a country which is part of the Schengen zone at the same time have an independent immigration policy? - I don't see why not!

As has been said by others, it is the EU who would have to kick Switzerland out of the Schengen zone. But seeing as Denmark went unscathed for 5 - 6 months with instituting renewed border control I don't think the EU would do this. In fact I don't think the EU has anything to gain by "punishing" Switzerland for anything.


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About "when there are immigration laws set down" - the plan is to change the rules around work permits not immigration laws; of course, they are strongly linked..
Yes, they are linked at the hip!
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Old 30.01.2014, 15:22
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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Of course

A) the Swiss economy will be forced to recruit personnel outside the EU, and to get approvals from the bureaucracy for every single job

B) lots of the newcomers will be NON-Europeans with a lower acceptance rate among the locals. And if I speak about problems in this regard I mean problems with the locals
Any logic behind? EU immigrants and non-EU immigrants are all immigrants, anyhow...
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  #409  
Old 30.01.2014, 15:26
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Re: POLL: Masseneinwanderung stoppen

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B) lots of the newcomers will be NON-Europeans with a lower acceptance rate among the locals.
Not sure about that. Many locals would prefer young single workers from Asia than EU workers who bring their families here with them.
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Old 30.01.2014, 15:38
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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AFAIK the FMOP is something which exists inside the Schengen zone. Can a country which is part of the Schengen zone at the same time have an independent immigration policy? - I don't see why not!

As has been said by others, it is the EU who would have to kick Switzerland out of the Schengen zone. But seeing as Denmark went unscathed for 5 - 6 months with instituting renewed border control I don't think the EU would do this. In fact I don't think the EU has anything to gain by "punishing" Switzerland for anything.




Yes, they are linked at the hip!

About "it is the EU who would have to kick Switzerland out of the Schengen zone"


The complexity is that Schengen is no longer a seperate treaty but is now part of the EU legal structure. So, for example, new countries joining the EU automatically get Schengen along with all the other rules like the allowed shapes of bananas.


If the EU would implement the guillotine in reference to the bilaterals then what would this mean for Schengen - is that also automatic or not?
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Old 30.01.2014, 15:46
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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The SVP are very clever how they can get people to support their initiatives without clearly explaining what is in and what is not in; this means people can invent their own preferred versions of the initiative - which versions sadly for them will never actually be implemented.

Regardless, the Swiss face a difficult situation where it is pretty obvious that we cannot endure tens of thousands of immigrants per year much longer.

But as always the economic erosion begins at the bottom and works its way to the top, and this means that the poor or Switzerland will be feeling the repercussion long before the middle to upper class does. And because the Swiss poor are a minority today, they have no chance of changing things around politically. But if we continue on like we are now I fear that will change.
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Old 30.01.2014, 16:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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If you read the link you sent to me and click through the links within that document you will find;
"Citizens of all European Union member states, the European Economic Area and Switzerland holding a valid passport or national identity card enjoy freedom of movement rights in each other's territory and can enter and reside in the each other's territory without a visa."


I made a couple of words bold for ease of understanding.
The sentence you quoted is not about Schengen but about the Freedom of movement within a Wikipedia article on EU visa policies.

I made a couple of words bold and added a screenshot for ease of understanding.
Attached Thumbnails
masseneinwanderung-stoppen-initiative-limit-immigration-freedom_of_movement.jpg  
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Old 30.01.2014, 16:32
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

First of all: I like the idea of Switzerland deciding its own fate. The more things they do differently than the EU the better, because sooner or later the EU will fail.

But this topic is more complicated than the average Joe, or lets say "average Reto" thinks it is:

Limits and controlls by the government make it harder for companies to find employees which leads to higher cost for companies and finally layoffs which means higher cost for taxpayers as well. Switzerland which relies on exports and is handicapped by high labour cost would be less competetive and give up growth. Not very smart.

I predict the SVP will win the hearts and the votes of enough Swiss rednecks for this initiative.
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Old 30.01.2014, 16:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Limits and controlls by the government make it harder for companies to find employees which leads to higher cost for companies and finally layoffs which means higher cost for taxpayers as well. Switzerland which relies on exports and is handicapped by high labour cost would be less competetive and give up growth. Not very smart.

I predict the SVP will win the hearts and the votes of enough Swiss rednecks for this initiative.
I am sure the Swiss people can find a moderate line between having their own say on immigration-related policy and making things as smooth as possible for Swiss businesses to employ foreigners. Perhaps there will be an additional form to fill out and an additional administrative fee for that form being processed, but I don't think this is over the top or too much for us to handle.

I don't see the relatively healthy Swiss salary/"labor cost" as being a handicap to me. I quite enjoy getting a decent salary.

I don't think it's fair to label people who vote for the initiative as "rednecks" - Come on!
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Old 30.01.2014, 17:34
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I don't see the relatively healthy Swiss salary/"labor cost" as being a handicap to me. I quite enjoy getting a decent salary.
How about your employer? Maybe he wouldn`t mind paying less to get the job done...
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Old 30.01.2014, 17:51
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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How about your employer? Maybe he wouldn`t mind paying less to get the job done...
Nope - I am sure they have had the opportunity to hire from abroad, but to date we are all Swiss employees working here.

The thing is that even if I said to my boss "Please pay me less" he wouldn't. Many Swiss have a certain level fairness in them that is not seen much elsewhere these days. The Swiss don't like haggling or skimping on others what they themselves would not like to be skimped on.

But I am sure there are businesses in Switzerland that do take advantage of cheaper labor from abroad, and this is unfortunate if it's resulting in foreigners being hired over Swiss.
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Old 30.01.2014, 18:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Nope - I am sure they have had the opportunity to hire from abroad, but to date we are all Swiss employees working here.

The thing is that even if I said to my boss "Please pay me less" he wouldn't. Many Swiss have a certain level fairness in them that is not seen much elsewhere these days. The Swiss don't like haggling or skimping on others what they themselves would not like to be skimped on.

But I am sure there are businesses in Switzerland that do take advantage of cheaper labor from abroad, and this is unfortunate if it's resulting in foreigners being hired over Swiss.

About "I am sure there are businesses in Switzerland that do take advantage of cheaper labor from abroad".


Well take the example of the politician Thomas Minder who supports this initiative but anyway advertises in Germany for staff.
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  #418  
Old 30.01.2014, 18:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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The sentence you quoted is not about Schengen but about the Freedom of movement within a Wikipedia article on EU visa policies.

I made a couple of words bold and added a screenshot for ease of understanding.

Well according to the link that you kindly provided "In 1990 the Agreement was supplemented by the Schengen Convention which proposed the abolition of internal border controls and a common visa policy. It was this Convention that created the Schengen Area through the complete abolition of border controls between Schengen states, common rules on visas, and police and judicial cooperation."


We are discussing the common visa policy created by the Schengen Convention. It is hard to see how Switzerland can stay in the Schengen area without complying with this policy?
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Old 30.01.2014, 18:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Well according to the link that you kindly provided "In 1990 the Agreement was supplemented by the Schengen Convention which proposed the abolition of internal border controls and a common visa policy. It was this Convention that created the Schengen Area through the complete abolition of border controls between Schengen states, common rules on visas, and police and judicial cooperation."


We are discussing the common visa policy created by the Schengen Convention. It is hard to see how Switzerland can stay in the Schengen area without complying with this policy?
Hard, perhaps ... impossible, probably not. Again, Denmark restored it's border control for 5 - 6 months and was never threatened by the EU.
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  #420  
Old 30.01.2014, 18:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Hard, perhaps ... impossible, probably not. Again, Denmark restored it's border control for 5 - 6 months and was never threatened by the EU.

Denmark was a full EU member not clinging to the outside like Switzerland.


Anyway EU was distinctly unhappy, e.g http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-762064.html
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