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Old 02.02.2014, 20:00
EAB EAB is offline
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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1. Switzerland does not have to support any job seeking foreigners, if so it is out their free will…
And we are using our free will to put a stop to that - even though it may be in a round-about way.

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2. People coming here committing crime are here mostly illegal ...
Is this true? Regardless, I was only stating the issues. I don't think I said that the SVP-led initiative solves all these issues.

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3. Once again, this initiative will not stop illegal immigrants
It may not stop them altogether, but it also will not make it any easier on them!
... and as above - I was only stating the issues.

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4. Switzerland has a very liberal market, with very few regulation, e.g. minimum wage…today it is totally regulated by the demand, the unemployment rate is around 3-4% which is quite low.
As was already noted earlier in the discussion, the Swiss unemployment rate is higher than that, being as those statistics do not include unemployed not registered with RAV.

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But I also would like that Swiss would get jobs before foreigners, but don't blame the foreigners for that, blame the liberal market and companies employing…a minimum wage would make it more unattractive hiring low wage foreigners….
I don't blame the foreigners - after all it's completely normal what they are doing. As long as the Swiss don't take measures, however extreme they may be deemed to the EU, to ensure that they have full control over who enters Swiss soil and who doesn't, the Swiss unemployment rate (the REAL one) will continue to rise.

Even by the RAV-derived numbers, we are currently sitting about 3.5% on unemployment, which is the highest it's been in at least the last 2 years, 2012 & 2013, and the month-by-month forecasts only go higher!
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  #562  
Old 02.02.2014, 20:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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But you do agree to that the Swiss did vote for Bilaterals, Schengen and Free movement?
Some did, but we voted against.

Tom
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  #563  
Old 02.02.2014, 22:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Some did, but we voted against.

Tom
Every democracy has a minority which is a good thing
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  #564  
Old 02.02.2014, 23:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

I think there is a serious debate to be had about national control over borders, social benefits, free movement of people etc.

When it comes to visa quotas - conceivably, this doesn't need to be on a whole country level. Why not let each commune decide how many visas are issued and to whom?

It makes sense that each commune should decide what is in their own best interests.
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  #565  
Old 02.02.2014, 23:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I think there is a serious debate to be had about national control over borders, social benefits, free movement of people etc.

When it comes to visa quotas - conceivably, this doesn't need to be on a whole country level. Why not let each commune decide how many visas are issued and to whom?

It makes sense that each commune should decide what is in their own best interests.
Very interesting ... I would be keen on that idea!
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  #566  
Old 02.02.2014, 23:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Very interesting ... I would be keen on that idea!
I'd like to see other countries, such as the UK, follow more the Swiss model of decentralised and direct democracy.

Some parts of the UK don't want more immigration. Others do. At the moment, the UK has to have a one size fits all approach.
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  #567  
Old 03.02.2014, 00:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I'd like to see other countries, such as the UK, follow more the Swiss model of decentralised and direct democracy.
.
Absolutely, me too. Some countries would like to stop the foreigners buy their agriculture land, real estate properties or exploit their natural (and not only) resources. Isn't it fascinating when you know more of the world?

Please don't bring the UK immigration issue into this equation, it has nothing to do with Switzerland. I cannot believe how many rednecks on the EF (not you, of course, unless you want to fall into this category) make totally unjustified comparisons.
Please keep the Daily Fail propaganda away.

Thank you.

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  #568  
Old 03.02.2014, 03:32
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I think there is a serious debate to be had about national control over borders, social benefits, free movement of people etc.

When it comes to visa quotas - conceivably, this doesn't need to be on a whole country level. Why not let each commune decide how many visas are issued and to whom?

It makes sense that each commune should decide what is in their own best interests.
Sensible idea
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  #569  
Old 03.02.2014, 05:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Did I ever say that any Swiss citizens don't vote?
So what!?
I have talked to many citizens and no politicians - now I am going to talk to the politicians. Is that wrong!?
YES SIR you DID. By tallking as if the "new voters" would participate and the "old ones" did not. Fact is that in elections and votes of the past 50 years only 20 to 40 percent of the people really participated


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How does any of that have anything to do with what you quoted me as having said!?
For the end'th time - There is no issue with immigrants coming to Switzerland to work without taking jobs away from the unemployed Swiss!!! I don't know how many times this has to be said. The issues are, as I understand them to be:
immigrants do not take jobs away from "the unemployed Swiss" but jobs from the not-born Swiss"

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1. People who come to Switzerland BEFORE being actually employed and who during their "stay" in Switzerland end up being supported by the Swiss tax payer in one way or another.
a rather irrelevant number of people in reality

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2. People coming to Switzerland with intent to commit crimes such as burglary and thievery.
such people already came into CH in the 1950ies and 60ies and 70ies and 80ies, simply using the open borders widely in evidence

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3. People coming to Switzerland and remaining here ILLEGALLY.
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a small number of people in reality. It is not so easy as you say

4. People coming to Switzerland whom employers favour over the Swiss alternatives because they place fewer demands and/or agree to work for less than the Swiss alternatives.
Employers here prefer young foreigner because them are not to be away for 3 weeks (or more) each year

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The SVP-led initiative paves the way for the Federal Parliament to be given back the right and responsibility to legislate in regards to immigrant work permit quotas.
the Federal Parliament already HAS that right

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Quotas on permits for work would allow the Swiss to turn off the tap of "looking for work" permits when the demand dries up, and before the surplus of immigrants looking for work in Switzerland begins to fill up the gaps that Swiss people could fill up!
the Swiss people cannot fill up the gaps, as long as the gaps are to be within the EU. YES Sir, this indeed IS an argument in favour of the initiatitve

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This will promote the Swiss as being placed as the forefront of employment and that if they lack the needed skills and training, that they are given the needed skills and training!
sorry ..... but this is ....... rubbish, to put it mildly

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Cute! I have been to over 40 countries and 6 continents already ... I'll be alright - but this year, like last year, I am sticking to Swiss sights, sounds and tastes!
Europe Africa Asia Australia/NZ America Antarctica makes 6.
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  #570  
Old 03.02.2014, 05:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Some did, but we voted against.

Tom
I remember the day. I was on a return from Lugano, in a bistro in Giubiasca (SW of Bellinzona) when I heard the results on the radio. Due to my bad Italian I needed a moment until realising, much to my surprise, that it was a YES to BOTH Schengen AND Dublin. I ordered another 2dl Merlot del Ticino to celebrate that surprising victory of Micheline Calmy Rey

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  #571  
Old 03.02.2014, 09:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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YES SIR you DID. By tallking as if the "new voters" would participate and the "old ones" did not. Fact is that in elections and votes of the past 50 years only 20 to 40 percent of the people really participated



immigrants do not take jobs away from "the unemployed Swiss" but jobs from the not-born Swiss"


a rather irrelevant number of people in reality


such people already came into CH in the 1950ies and 60ies and 70ies and 80ies, simply using the open borders widely in evidence



Employers here prefer young foreigner because them are not to be away for 3 weeks (or more) each year


the Federal Parliament already HAS that right


the Swiss people cannot fill up the gaps, as long as the gaps are to be within the EU. YES Sir, this indeed IS an argument in favour of the initiatitve


sorry ..... but this is ....... rubbish, to put it mildly


Europe Africa Asia Australia/NZ America Antarctica makes 6.
Look, it seems that you and I do not see things the same way. You take what I say and say its irrelevant... Etc ... You misunderstand and misrepresent what I say. Maybe I don't express myself clearly enough. But whatever the reason I feel it best to just agree to disagree since we obviously don't have any intention of seeing any validity in each others point of view.
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  #572  
Old 03.02.2014, 15:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I agree 100%

Switzerlands population is too small to satisfy the economy´s demand for talent. Do the swiss want foreign talent to work for, or against their economy?
They want foreign talent which will not compete against them. Highly qualified and low skill immigrants are ok to SVP voters because they either cannot or don't want to compete against them in the labour market. It's the middle level skill people who compete directly against them for jobs that they want to block from coming here.
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  #573  
Old 03.02.2014, 15:46
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

Switzerland has the right to determine its own foreign and domestic policy. It has some limitations currently because of treaties that have been negotiated, but these can be re-negotiated or scrapped if it is desired.

While I have some self-interest in being allowed to remain working and living here, if they changed the rules, it would just be 'though sh!t' and I'd have to move on.

In the end, I don't see the current immigration policy as a bad thing for Switzerland but I guess others may disagree.

I think Switzerland will have bigger issues to deal with in the near future: attacks on banking secrecy and attacks on tax havens.
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  #574  
Old 03.02.2014, 17:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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While I have some self-interest in being allowed to remain working and living here, if they changed the rules, it would just be 'though sh!t' and I'd have to move on.
After a certain age, you'd find moving on a lot more difficult.
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  #575  
Old 03.02.2014, 18:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I know plenty of "genuine" Swiss who speak no German beyond saying various phrases from "Hogan's Heroes".

Tom
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  #576  
Old 03.02.2014, 19:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Look, it seems that you and I do not see things the same way. You take what I say and say its irrelevant... Etc ... You misunderstand and misrepresent what I say. Maybe I don't express myself clearly enough. But whatever the reason I feel it best to just agree to disagree since we obviously don't have any intention of seeing any validity in each others point of view.
About " I feel it best to just agree to disagree" - why don't you just admit that you do not have good responses for the various points raised?
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  #577  
Old 03.02.2014, 19:34
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About " I feel it best to just agree to disagree" - why don't you just admit that you do not have good responses for the various points raised?
Because, while I do not have answers to everything regarding this topic (and I don't think I am alone in this), much of what he has to say, IMO, draws on assumptions of what I meant with what I said here and there etc ... I don't think there is any point to continue answering him when he obviously finds it too easy to read more into what I say then what I said - and with some of it I really think he just flat out misunderstands me. Nothing for me or him to "admit" to - we both obviously have completely opposing views and that is fine for me. I have to respect it even though I may not agree with it. Savvy?

(P.S. I think he is well able to fight his own battles too )
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  #578  
Old 03.02.2014, 19:51
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

I would just like to thank a great majority of posters on this thread discussing very reasonably and without ad hominem attacks. It's a pleasure to read, and it's such a polarizing topic that I was afraid it would devolve into name calling. Thank you!

(p.s. I would be voting NO, but as a B-permit non-EU person, I'm very far away from having the right to vote).
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Old 03.02.2014, 20:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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After a certain age, you'd find moving on a lot more difficult.
Then it would be prudent to have a back-up plan when living in a country where your long-term rights to reside are uncertain.

Though I expect it wouldn't be a case of 'boot everybody out'. Maybe they'd honour existing visas, or give time for people to adjust. Just freezing/limiting new visas would eventually bring the numbers down due to natural churn.
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Old 03.02.2014, 20:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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It makes sense that each commune should decide what is in their own best interests.
You mean like this: White town

or closer to home: Emmen

And how about trade and business, shall we start with local trade sanctions etc as well?
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