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Old 10.02.2014, 00:04
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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- this is a far right argument in itself, careful where you get you inspiration for your rhetorics.
Could you please explain that to me?

The SP had "to ovecome capitalism" written as a goal in their party plattform 2011.
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  #962  
Old 10.02.2014, 00:06
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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Could you please explain that to me?

The SP had "to ovecome capitalism" written as a goal in their party plattform 2011.
To equal far right and far left is in continental Europe not an argument. I know it is in the anglo- american world, but here, it has a clear connotation. Use it, I don't care, you are now simply informed.
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  #963  
Old 10.02.2014, 00:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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No ... but unfortunately a lot of people think so, and the SVP exploits it since "Schengen = no systematic checks at the borders = Switzerland has lost control of its borders = the EU has forced Switzerland to give up control of its borders" is just too juicy to pass up.

Switzerland not being an EU member, Schengen is a separate treaty not linked to the bilaterals.
Schengen was signed as part of the second batch of bilaterals.

Schengen isn't in the guilliotine with the first set of bilaterals (including FMOP) but there's a guillotine of Schengen with the Dublin regulation - ironically, if they scrap Schengen and Dublin is scrapped with it, then Switzerland might actually end up with more asylum applications to process.

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  #964  
Old 10.02.2014, 00:11
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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To equal far right and far left is in continental Europe not an argument. I know it is in the anglo- american world, but here, it has a clear connotation. Use it, I don't care, you are now simply informed.
You got me wrong. I didn't equal far right and far left.
What I meant: Neither of the big parties in Switzerland is far-anything. Neither is the SVP far-right, nor is the SP far-left.

For SP-voters, the SVP may seem far away and for a SVP-voter, SP may seem far away.
But from the middle, none of them looks like being on the tip of a wing.
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Text from the SVP initiative run on google translate:

1 Switzerland controls the immigration of foreigners on its own.


To me it looks it's already like this.


2 The number of permits for the stay of foreigners in Switzerland is limited by maximum annual numbers and quotas . The maximum numbers apply to all grants of immigration law with the inclusion of the asylum system. The right to permanent residence , family reunification and social benefits may be limited .


They will touch the "new comers", hence it's going to be better for who is already in (e.g. better salary, better jobs, lesser rent). Furthermore that "may be" will probably nullify the last statement, SVP did a bad mistake here.


3 The maximum annual numbers and quotas for working foreigners are to be aligned to the overall economic interests of Switzerland in consideration of a precedence for Swiss citizens , and the cross-border commuters are to be included . The key criteria for the granting of residence permits in particular the application of an employer , the integration capability and sufficient , independent livelihood.


Nothing new here, as point 3, no worries.


4 There should be no international treaties are concluded , the offend against this product.


As point 1, Switzerland is already acting on his own.


5 The law shall regulate the details .


This is crucial, the politician job is indeed to define the details, which is all what matters here. If I were a politician I'd strive to try to keep EU and Swiss happy at the same time, hence putting a large faked quota which still obeys the initiative text but which keeps EU happy anyway. Anything that would touch who is already in, especially B/C permits, married ppl, ecc... would just create too much havok especially for the swiss themself both in Switzerland and abroad.


Relax guys, it's going to be better for who is already in.
1. Switzerland does not have full and independent control of immigration as under FMOP/bilaterals, EU citizens have the right to live and work in Switzerland. Currently they cannot limit immigration from the EU with quotas (except for some new EU countries and transitional arrangements).

2. The quota is on permits, not NEW permits and so this affects new and old alike - though I guess only existing people at the time of permit renewal.

4. This is the point that gets them into conflict with the EU

5. The ruling elite have got themselves into this mess by not addressing popular concerns early enough. It would compound their mistake to ignore the people after the vote and put in a 'technical' quota. Personally, I would 'pass the buck' and get the cantons to to set their own annual limits.
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  #966  
Old 10.02.2014, 00:19
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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Is there really a link between this and Schengen?
Technically they are not linked but Viviane Reding and other EU responsibles were very clear: if freedom of movement is limited it will have an impact on the other agreements...including Schengen.

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Yes, but does the OECD calculate this themselves or just accept the statistics from national governments?
Data are provided by governments....i think they can be trusted.
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  #967  
Old 10.02.2014, 00:23
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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Yes, but does the OECD calculate this themselves or just accept the statistics from national governments?
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Data are provided by governments....i think they can be trusted.
Actually, the data are not government-provided, precisely because the definition of "foreigner" (i.e. how difficult it is to obtain citizenship) is so widely different across the OECD.

Based on the methodological reference at the bottom of the OECD study:

The numbers are apparently estimates from the OECD, based on an OECD-wide census taken in 2000. How accurate these numbers are is a guess, but the strength of this analysis is that the numbers as of 2000 were equally reliable across countries.

Extrapolating from the year 2000 census data, the calculation is for percent of the population that is "foreign born." This number, 27.8% for Switzerland as of 2010, includes exactly what you'd think it does-everyone who lives in Switzerland but was born somewhere else. Therefore, it counts Swiss born abroad as "foreign born" as well as anyone else.

The percent of foreign born that are Swiss was estimated to be 32.1% in 2010, so that would mean that the percent of foreign born foreigners in Switzerland was 18.9% in that year.
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  #968  
Old 10.02.2014, 00:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I've just been thinking. If the Swiss Government are looking for some technical advice with implementing this initiative the may want to consider employing Mark Harper. He seems to be familiar with the issues of immigration and the consequences of employing illegal immigrants. Coincidentally, he has just become available.

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Immigration Minister Mark Harper has sensationally quit - for employing an illegal immigrant as his cleaner.

In a hugely embarrassingly blow for David Cameron, Mr Harper was behind the controversial “Go Home” adverts emblazoned on vans that urged illegal immigrants to leave the UK.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...nister-3125059
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  #969  
Old 10.02.2014, 00:25
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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1. Switzerland does not have control of immigration as under FMOP/bilaterals, EU citizens have the right to live and work in Switzerland. Currently they cannot limit immigration from the EU with quotas (except for some new EU countries and transitional arrangements).

2. The quota is on permits, not NEW permits and so this affects new and old alike - though I guess only existing people at the time of permit renewal.
I don't think Switzerland is obeying any international law in terms of immigration, in the end they got their rules, 3 months in/out, no work and you are out, end of their monolateral agreement.

The quotas are intended for new comers to limit immigration flow, any quota system has always been intended and implemented that way till now. Kicking away people who are already stably in is non-sense, that will just not happen.
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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1. Switzerland does not have control of immigration as under FMOP/bilaterals, EU citizens have the right to live and work in Switzerland. Currently they cannot limit immigration from the EU with quotas (except for some new EU countries and transitional arrangements).

2. The quota is on permits, not NEW permits and so this affects new and old alike - though I guess only existing people at the time of permit renewal.

4. This is the point that gets them into conflict with the EU

5. The ruling elite have got themselves into this mess by not addressing popular concerns early enough. It would compound their mistake to ignore the people after the vote and put in a 'technical' quota. Personally, I would 'pass the buck' and get the cantons to to set their own annual limits.
1. They had rhat too in the 19th century, one just need a job. The federal politicians will now have to do what the employers have been doing all those years. The SVP is a socialist party. Who tell them?

2. quota yes but no number, the real question is waht numbers the parliament will dare to set. It can become a reduction... or an increase of officially encouraged immigration even with this votation. The SVP wrote a boomerang text, who tell them?

4. The Germans and the French are furious against Switzerland. Count on them to make Bern sweat before giving in anything. Contrary to the SVP, the EU have competent jurists, there are so many contradictions in the Swiss votings now that the EU can make Bern dance the tango for years. Be ready for a bargain with tax issues if Bern wants anything.

5. How do you address problems that are not articulated in the first place? The SVP never ever said what the problems are, they just state their solutions. Cameron has the same problem with his own party and the worse one further right, whise name I forgot. Wish him as much luck in London as the Swiss will need in Brussel.
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I'm going to go out on a limb to say that while the initiative is certainly misguided and populistic, there are definitely problems with mass immigration (in a general sense). It is difficult to find another place like Switzerland. The same standard of living, purchasing power and security is basically not available anywhere else. It is almost an aberration, an island of (relative) paradise.

Now place yourself into the shoes of the average Swiss citizen. Everywhere you look in the countries around, you see what problems mass immigration has brought for them. You don't see the benefits mostly, but you see how policies that were not adjusted in time spiraled into much bigger problems a decade later. You feel that your country is in a delicate balance that could be easily unhinged because of mass immigration. You know that the majority of immigrants will not abuse the social system, but you are worried that it simply won't be able to deal with the onslaught. You are worried that your standard of living will suffer because of it.

You want the government to do something. At least acknowledge that the problem exists, yet nothing much is happening. Cue 2014 February and there is an initiative from SVP that claims to address the issue. You don't like SVP, and you don't agree with some/most of the points in the initiative, but you know that this might be your only chance for a while to voice your worries. You vote yes, and hope that the politicians will come up with some compromise between the admittedly crazy SVP demands and the status quo. An agreeable middle road.

In absence of smart and sensible solutions, people are going to voice their opinions using any channels given to them. The only reason this initiative went through is because the rest of the establishment offered no alternatives.
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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In absence of smart and sensible solutions, people are going to voice their opinions using any channels given to them. The only reason this initiative went through is because the rest of the establishment offered no alternatives.
The existing safeguard clauses that introduce a quota for permits given to EU nationals were invoked last year.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch//bfm/en/hom...r_schweiz.html

So the government was trying to do something, but this is one occasion where the contest between Swiss pragmatism and nationalism was won by the latter.
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:37
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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Actually, the data are not government-provided, precisely because the definition of "foreigner" (i.e. how difficult it is to obtain citizenship) is so widely different across the OECD.

Based on the methodological reference at the bottom of the OECD study:

The numbers are apparently estimates from the OECD, based on an OECD-wide census taken in 2000. How accurate these numbers are is a guess, but the strength of this analysis is that the numbers as of 2000 were equally reliable across countries.

Extrapolating from the year 2000 census data, the calculation is for percent of the population that is "foreign born." This number, 27.8% for Switzerland as of 2010, includes exactly what you'd think it does-everyone who lives in Switzerland but was born somewhere else. Therefore, it counts Swiss born abroad as "foreign born" as well as anyone else.

The percent of foreign born that are Swiss was estimated to be 32.1% in 2010, so that would mean that the percent of foreign born foreigners in Switzerland was 18.9% in that year.
According to the federal stats administration which uses nationality and not place of birth in 2012 there were 23.3% foreigners in switzerland.
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  #974  
Old 10.02.2014, 00:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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3 The maximum annual numbers and quotas for working foreigners are to be aligned to the overall economic interests of Switzerland in consideration of a precedence for Swiss citizens , and the cross-border commuters are to be included . The key criteria for the granting of residence permits in particular the application of an employer , the integration capability and sufficient , independent livelihood.


Nothing new here, as point 3, no worries.
This IS new. With the current treaties there is no precedence for Swiss citizens in the current market.

Swiss/EU/EEA/anyone currently having a B/C permit are all on the same footing. No hierarchy. Then if you cant find someone in this category, then you can go to third countries.

The way I read it they want Swiss citizens give priority on the job market as it was before the FMOP agreement.
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:45
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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According to the federal stats administration which uses nationality and not place of birth in 2012 there were 23.3% foreigners in switzerland.
Okay. I'm not really sure how to compare the Swiss definition of nationality in 2012 vs. the OECD estimate of foreign born foreigners as of 2010. In one case, nationality is the issue (since obtaining a Swiss passport is more difficult than in other countries) and in the other case it's an estimate that was intended to serve as a useful comparison to other countries (because the methodological flaws are relatively consistent).

Is your point that the number is higher? Roughly the same? An official government statistic?
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:46
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I think quite a few people are missing a point when they assume that high enough quotas will satisfy the EU and meet the requirements of the referendum. There is likely to be a crucial difference between the current right to work and reside in Switzerland, and the system based on work permit employment:

1) By definition, finding a job will be so much more difficult than at present. Both because of the quota system, and because of the huge increase in bureaucratic costs. Many employers will not bother, and simply prefer to hire a less qualified local worker.

2) Work permits will most certainly be linked to a specific employer. Hence, very little room for negotiating better wages/promotions, because moving to another employer will be exceedingly difficult

3) Right to bring family members may be severely restricted. Right of spouses to work may be subject to the same limits and quotas, which will mean that many will stand very little change of fining work at all.

4) No job security. Being fired will probably mean having to leave the country. Your kids are going to school, you have property/been paying into pension schemes? Doesn't matter- losing a job will mean you will have to go back.

5) No social security, despite paying taxes.

6) High visa fees, no certainty in renewing your visa.

The Swiss government may set a quota of 200,000 per year. Still, this will not matter- all the factors listed above (and many more I did not mention) will affect all the holders of work permits.
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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1. Switzerland does not have full and independent control of immigration as under FMOP/bilaterals, EU citizens have the right to live and work in Switzerland. Currently they cannot limit immigration from the EU with quotas (except for some new EU countries and transitional arrangements).

2. The quota is on permits, not NEW permits and so this affects new and old alike - though I guess only existing people at the time of permit renewal.

4. This is the point that gets them into conflict with the EU

5. The ruling elite have got themselves into this mess by not addressing popular concerns early enough. It would compound their mistake to ignore the people after the vote and put in a 'technical' quota. Personally, I would 'pass the buck' and get the cantons to to set their own annual limits.
So a permit renewal is equivalent to the issuing of a new permit?
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:54
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So a permit renewal is equivalent to the issuing of a new permit?
if number of permits for foreigners is limited to a quota, then of course existing permits + new permits must be less than the quota.
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Old 10.02.2014, 00:56
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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Okay. I'm not really sure how to compare the Swiss definition of nationality in 2012 vs. the OECD estimate of foreign born foreigners as of 2010. In one case, nationality is the issue (since obtaining a Swiss passport is more difficult than in other countries) and in the other case it's an estimate that was intended to serve as a useful comparison to other countries (because the methodological flaws are relatively consistent).

Is your point that the number is higher? Roughly the same? An official government statistic?
I was wondering if foreigners born in switzerland are counted innthe oecd method. Apparently the BFS gives 23% foreigners in 2010.
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Old 10.02.2014, 01:02
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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I was wondering if foreigners born in switzerland are counted innthe oecd method. Apparently the BFS gives 23% foreigners in 2010.
Nope, it's people born outside of Switzerland that move into Switzerland. Basically, if the foreign born estimate by the OCED is correct, it would mean that 4% of the total Swiss population in 2010 were people born here but not Swiss.

So far, I have only been able to find statistics on children born in Switzerland with one foreign parent (about 1 in 5 for current children, meaning the current under 18 population), but that also includes Swiss kids, obviously.
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