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  #1021  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Imagine that you are non-EU. There wouldn't be any differences between these countries and Switzerland, regarding immigration.
Imagine that you are EU, then there would be differences.
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  #1022  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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People -- please. Are we not over-reacting here?

Or is it me who is being naive? My understanding is that the referendum result calls (by the narrowest possible margin) for a cap on immigration. I interpret this as, instead of allowing endless numbers of foreigners in to work, there will, in the future, be a limit -- say 50K, 100K (who knows) per year.

This is what a CAP means. A cap is not a barrier, it's a limit -- I do not interpret this result as calling for an end to all immigration and I certainly do not see it as leading to the expulsion of settled, economically active people who originate from other countries.

Tell me I'm a wide-eyed innocent if necessary, but at the moment I can see an awful lot of panicking and alarmist nonsense being expressed!!
I think many of us are taking a longer term view, and that's why this vote is so depressing. This isn't a specific policy decision so much as a direction. And the fact that it was close makes no odds, the small minded xenophobes who vote with their bitter hearts rather than their heads won.
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  #1023  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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People -- please. Are we not over-reacting here?
I wrote exactly this last night. But then I deleted it as I remembered this was EF......
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  #1024  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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As for foreigners already here, well we have 3 years to start thinking about leaving before being pushed. Suddenly job offers in Frankfurt, Brussels, UK, USA don't look so unappealing. Even if my C permit does end up being worth more than the paper it's printed on and I'm not unceremoniously kicked out, do I really want to live in a country where job prospects could be so bleak.
Castro, correct me if I am wrong, but as a C permit holder, arent renewals completely separate from these quotas?

As far as I am aware, the vote is only looking to put a cap on quotas for new permits.
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  #1025  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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If every EU country country could limit immigration and retain everything else don't you think they'd be all over doing the same as CH in a New York minute? Don't be so naive.
I don't think that any EU country would vote to limit immigration from other EU states.
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  #1026  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:32
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Another step back into the NS era for Switzerland
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  #1027  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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If every EU country country could limit immigration and retain everything else don't you think they'd be all over doing the same as CH in a New York minute? Don't be so naive.
The lack of immigration controls may be the biggest driver of anti-EU sentiment. At some point, the mandarins in Brussels may calculate that it is better to turn their back on the principle of FMOP and concede immigration controls to keep the EU going.

A change to allow immigration quotas is not inconceivable, IMO.
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  #1028  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:35
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

So what happened is that the Swiss public have decided that their government should have a meeting (at some point in the next 3 years) with the EU.

That is it. Nothing else will change before then and it is most likely that bugger all will happen after that will effect the majority of EFers. The most likely outcome is that the EU agrees to allow Switzerland to stop giving benefits to anyone who hasn't paid into the system.

In fact, when you look at the "feeling" in a large number of EU countries it would not be a surprise if others followed suit
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  #1029  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Castro, correct me if I am wrong, but as a C permit holder, arent renewals completely separate from these quotas?

As far as I am aware, the vote is only looking to put a cap on quotas for new permits.
Yes. This has always been the case and I see no reason why it should change. But everyone can scream and panic if they like.

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I think many of us are taking a longer term view, and that's why this vote is so depressing. This isn't a specific policy decision so much as a direction. And the fact that it was close makes no odds, the small minded xenophobes who vote with their bitter hearts rather than their heads won.
That's nice. But I'm not a "small minded xenophobe and I believe that the immigration levels coming into Switzerland are unsustainable especially as politicians were doing nothing about the problems that are arising from it. I probably would have voted the same way.

The people had little other choice. Now it's up to the politicians to actually DO something.

One thing I very much appreciate in Switzerland is direct democracy. I don't think they should be dictated to by Brussels.
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  #1030  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Castro, correct me if I am wrong, but as a C permit holder, arent renewals completely separate from these quotas?

As far as I am aware, the vote is only looking to put a cap on quotas for new permits.
I would love to have a definitive answer on this point.

Thinking about it, there's nothing to say that a future vote wouldn't restrict the rights of C permit holders anyway.
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  #1031  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I don't think that any EU country would vote to limit immigration from other EU states.
You are right. I can clearly remember the celebrations in all European countries after Rumanians and Bulgarians could freely move in the EU.
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  #1032  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:42
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think many of us are taking a longer term view, and that's why this vote is so depressing. This isn't a specific policy decision so much as a direction. And the fact that it was close makes no odds, the small minded xenophobes who vote with their bitter hearts rather than their heads won.
executive bonuses, 1:12, anti-immigration

the trend in initiatives that are anti-business has been going for a while and i expect most businesses have a back-up plan in place.

switzerland may be a good country to avoid taxes and hide black money, but as a place to do business, it is falling down the ranks.
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  #1033  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I would love to have a definitive answer on this point.

Thinking about it, there's nothing to say that a future vote wouldn't restrict the rights of C permit holders anyway.
Then just call your local Gemeinde asking about it, or better write to them and post the answer in EF back
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  #1034  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

more evidence of Swiss Xenophobia.

Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action urges all governments to take immediate measures and to develop strong policies to prevent and combat all forms and manifestations of racism, xenophobia or related intolerance, where necessary by enactment of appropriate legislation including penal measure.[4]
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  #1035  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:46
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I would love to have a definitive answer on this point.

Thinking about it, there's nothing to say that a future vote wouldn't restrict the rights of C permit holders anyway.
You can't have one.

We can only speculate. Some people will speculate that the sky is falling. Others will speculate based on the past. Neither is correct until the gov't gets to work.

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I don't think that any EU country would vote to limit immigration from other EU states.
I disagree. I think there are a few countries that would.

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more evidence of Swiss Xenophobia.

Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action urges all governments to take immediate measures and to develop strong policies to prevent and combat all forms and manifestations of racism, xenophobia or related intolerance, where necessary by enactment of appropriate legislation including penal measure.[4]
Is it?
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  #1036  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Switzerland not taking fully part in the Personenfreizügigkeit sure will be a huge problem for the EU.
Probably as huge as it would be if one of the big members would not want to take part in the currency union.
....oh, wait!....
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  #1037  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You are right. I can clearly remember the celebrations in all European countries after Rumanians and Bulgarians could freely move in the EU.
The Romanians and Bulgarians influx never really met expectations of huge masses crossing the boarders. That should be celebrated in that politicians and their like got it wrong and up to now it has not been a problem since they were given the option.
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  #1038  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think many of us are taking a longer term view, and that's why this vote is so depressing. This isn't a specific policy decision so much as a direction. And the fact that it was close makes no odds, the small minded xenophobes who vote with their bitter hearts rather than their heads won.
Yes, this is my worry as well. That this is an indication of the wider trend of economic nationalism and paranoia. The Süddeutsche Zeitung today refers to Switzerland as giving voice to the opposition to freedom of movement growing in many EU countries.

Das Nicht-Mitglied Schweiz hat nur artikuliert, was auch viele EU-Mitglieder umtreibt. Die Schweizer haben die Pandora-Büchse geöffnet, aus der sich jetzt auch andere Gegner der Freizügigkeit bedienen werden.
Roughly translated as:
Non-member Switzerland has only expressed what is a concern in many EU countries. The Swiss have opened Pandora's Box and now other opponents of freedom of movement will reach in and help themselves.
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  #1039  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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more evidence of Swiss Xenophobia.

Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action urges all governments to take immediate measures and to develop strong policies to prevent and combat all forms and manifestations of racism, xenophobia or related intolerance, where necessary by enactment of appropriate legislation including penal measure.[4]
Wish I'd slept better last night.
I read the last two words as 'penile measure'
Haven't seen one of those for a very long time - except for the 4 month old peeing in his own face last night
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  #1040  
Old 10.02.2014, 09:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Switzerland not taking fully part in the Personenfreizügigkeit sure will be a huge problem for the EU.
Probably as huge as it would be if one of the big members would not want to take part in the currency union.
....oh, wait!....
Rather the other way around. See here

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...story/12848681

and here

http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/schweiz/ic...men-1.18239590


The 9th February should be elevated to National-I-Shot-Myself-In-The-Foot day.
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