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  #1061  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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How hard could it be to scrape up 100,000 signatures to initiate a referendum to have Ticino kicked out of the Swiss Confederation? Problems (present and future) solved.
Why would the Swiss want to get rid of a better version of Italy
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  #1062  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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They're not really. They're making and taking opportunities....doing jobs that the local population deems below them.
Well you're making a generalization also, saying that "local population deems below them". Are they all the same?

Also you are not talking about the situation of those who don't deem those jobs below them. What can they do about this unfair competition?
(unfair= based on general acceptance of any conditions, ignorance with local laws, etc...).

Although I could agree that it's "making and taking opportunities", one should not forget these:
-Opportunities for who?
-In what conditions that is happening? Is that in respect of the rules which are forced down local population?
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  #1063  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Why would the Swiss want to get rid of a better version of Italy
A better version of Italy would still exist in Europapark, just an hour's drive from Switzerland.
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  #1064  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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This thread appears to be filled with FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt for those unfamiliar with the acronym), and I admit we're left with an amount of uncertainty and doubt regarding this vote.
This may be true, and the Swiss don't generally have a habit of doing anything to undermine their own economic prosperity (e.g. voting against 1:12 initiative, voting against more paid vacation etc..), however it is this period of uncertainty that might tip a lot of the key decision makers. Again why risk the capital investment when it may, or may not be in jeopardy? It just takes a mild panic to trigger a stampede.
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  #1065  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

(tongue in cheek here) Brussels is not going to wake up and cancel all the agreements today. Think about it - If all those 80,000 evil, job-stealing, resource-sucking, non-local-language-speaking foreigners can't go to Switzerland then they'll just wind up elsewhere in the EU.

Jokes aside, I think the Swiss government is smart enough to craft legislation that will keep both sides satisfied, at least until the next vote. Quotas can be set artificially high, or can even be set at current levels, which the EU didn't like but certainly has accepted. The rules could be changed to issue annual L permits instead of 5-year B's. There are options, and I'm sure all will be explored thoroughly.
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Old 10.02.2014, 10:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

No one is going to kick anyone out of this country unless you're a criminal. Or an American.
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  #1067  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And from the Tagesanzeiger

«Die Schweiz sagt ‹ the EU›»

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/...story/12397924

Seems the EF software removed the key word - it has 4 letters begins with F and ends with K
The potty-mouth sub editor probably got a slap on the wrist for that risque title. It has since been changed to the "Chronology of Racism in Switzerland".

Still, I enjoyed a quiet chuckle.
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  #1068  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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there were plenty of Austrians and Germans working here before free movement.
a lot less than after though. Much less unemployment now in Germany than in the 1990's also.
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  #1069  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It will be harder for smaller companies to find German speaking workers. Switzerland loses attractiveness for German speakers.
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there were plenty of Austrians and Germans working here before free movement.
I think think that much will change, except for the Swiss having the feeling that they are in control of immigration - which is not a bad thing.

Why would the Swiss want to get rid of a better version of Italy
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A better version of Italy would still exist in Europapark, just an hour's drive from Switzerland.
Sometimes it all boils down to fundamental geography knowledge.

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  #1070  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It will be harder for smaller companies to find German speaking workers. Switzerland loses attractiveness for German speakers.
Nope, still don't understand why that would change happen. If there are jobs available - then the companies will employ. The vote hasn't suddenly enacted a law.

The vote requires the government to do something on this topic - and they will. They will have a meeting with the EU saying "We no longer want freedom of movement". The EU will say "Tough, you signed up for it. If you close your borders and limit immigration we'll charge 200% import duties on all Swiss exports".

The Swiss negotiate it down to maintaining freedom of movement and stopping benefits for those who haven't contributed - which is what happens currently with the RAV.

Look what happened with the Minarets - vote passed - law enacted - went to EU Court of Human Rights - overturned.

Animal rights activists say animals shouldn't be treated as objects - paragraph added to legal code saying "animals are not objects" - a few paragraphs later in describing how animals are considered - they are objects again.

Perhaps the most amusing part of all this are the Non-EUs who are jumping up down - seriously guys - which part of the freedom of movement do you think you are part of??
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  #1071  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It will change things for smaller companies though
On purely personal experience, I first came here to work for a company with less than 100 employees in a village in rural Fribourg. All my immediate colleagues were Brits/US.
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  #1072  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:49
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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(tongue in cheek here) Brussels is not going to wake up and cancel all the agreements today. Think about it - If all those 80,000 evil, job-stealing, resource-sucking, non-local-language-speaking foreigners can't go to Switzerland then they'll just wind up elsewhere in the EU.

Jokes aside, I think the Swiss government is smart enough to craft legislation that will keep both sides satisfied, at least until the next vote. Quotas can be set artificially high, or can even be set at current levels, which the EU didn't like but certainly has accepted. The rules could be changed to issue annual L permits instead of 5-year B's. There are options, and I'm sure all will be explored thoroughly.
The voice of reason here.

Anyway, I never thought it was all right that even a, lets say British, au-pair could get a 5-year B permit just like that...and a specialist from a less fortunate part of the world struggles to renew her/his L temporary permit year after year...(OK; I know it is not the case anymore since, in general, one can get an L permit only two times)
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  #1073  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:51
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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People -- please. Are we not over-reacting here?

Or is it me who is being naive? My understanding is that the referendum result calls (by the narrowest possible margin) for a cap on immigration. I interpret this as, instead of allowing endless numbers of foreigners in to work, there will, in the future, be a limit -- say 50K, 100K (who knows) per year.

This is what a CAP means. A cap is not a barrier, it's a limit -- I do not interpret this result as calling for an end to all immigration and I certainly do not see it as leading to the expulsion of settled, economically active people who originate from other countries.

Tell me I'm a wide-eyed innocent if necessary, but at the moment I can see an awful lot of panicking and alarmist nonsense being expressed!!

No, it's much more than the cap issue. It's the right to reside and work vs living on a work permit issue. Here's a recap of what I already said above:

1) By definition, finding a job will be so much more difficult than at present. Both because of the quota system, and because of the huge increase in bureaucratic costs. Many employers will not bother, and simply prefer to hire a less qualified local worker.

2) Work permits will most certainly be linked to a specific employer. Hence, very little room for negotiating better wages/promotions, because moving to another employer will be exceedingly difficult

3) Right to bring family members may be severely restricted. Right of spouses to work may be subject to the same limits and quotas, which will mean that many will stand very little change of fining work at all.

4) No job security. Being fired will probably mean having to leave the country. Your kids are going to school, you have property/been paying into pension schemes? Doesn't matter- losing a job will mean you will have to go back.

5) No social security, despite paying taxes.

6) High visa fees, no certainty in renewing your visa.

The Swiss government may set a quota of 200,000 per year. Still, this will not matter- all the factors listed above (and many more I did not mention) will affect all the holders of work permits.
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Old 10.02.2014, 10:54
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The Swiss government may set a quota of 200,000 per year. Still, this will not matter- all the factors listed above (and many more I did not mention) will affect all the holders of work permits.
Except C-holders
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Old 10.02.2014, 10:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I don't think that any EU country would vote to limit immigration from other EU states.
Britain will be the first in line to do this, if they see there are no consequences to the Switzerland's vote.
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  #1076  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

If you cant read the german then look at the pictures

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/...d_1067059.html
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  #1077  
Old 10.02.2014, 10:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Thought they already started the process?
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  #1078  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:01
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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No, it's much more than the cap issue. It's the right to reside and work vs living on a work permit issue. Here's a recap of what I already said above:

1) By definition, finding a job will be so much more difficult than at present. Both because of the quota system, and because of the huge increase in bureaucratic costs. Many employers will not bother, and simply prefer to hire a less qualified local worker.

2) Work permits will most certainly be linked to a specific employer. Hence, very little room for negotiating better wages/promotions, because moving to another employer will be exceedingly difficult

3) Right to bring family members may be severely restricted. Right of spouses to work may be subject to the same limits and quotas, which will mean that many will stand very little change of fining work at all.

4) No job security. Being fired will probably mean having to leave the country. Your kids are going to school, you have property/been paying into pension schemes? Doesn't matter- losing a job will mean you will have to go back.

5) No social security, despite paying taxes.

6) High visa fees, no certainty in renewing your visa.

The Swiss government may set a quota of 200,000 per year. Still, this will not matter- all the factors listed above (and many more I did not mention) will affect all the holders of work permits.
Welcome to the world of non-EU L (and some B) permit holders then!
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  #1079  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The Swiss are having a harder time finding a job.
The Swiss are having a harder time finding affordable housing.
The Swiss local governments are having a harder time budgeting their taxes.

This is the Swiss saying we have had enough. When the Swiss voted on opening the borders to floods of immigrants, they were told life would stay the same. There would still be plenty of affordable housing and plenty of jobs. Well, it didn't quite work out as planned and now the Swiss are saying they've had enough.

I understand every single expat's argument here and I hear the fear of the future in your voice. That same fear of the future was reflected in yesterday's outcome.

However, as already posted many times, nothing will change for many years to come. You're safe, folks.
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Old 10.02.2014, 11:04
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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If you cant read the german then look at the pictures

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/...d_1067059.html
What a crappy propaganda and gross generalization about Switzerland...

Look the picture:
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