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  #1141  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Over the last week I have seen so many references to racism, fascism, Nazism etc in relation to the initiative. I have seen it in the EU news and in the UK news. I saw it in Facebook comments and in threads (such as this one). I even saw it in the form of vandalism of pro-initiative posters (Swastikas drawn all over the posters).

So if this initiative is racist, fascist and Nazi ... I would have to conclude that every other nation on Earth which has independent immigration policies are also the same. I would also have to conclude that the EU itself is also racist, fascist and Nazi towards all those nations which it does not dissolve it's borders towards.

OR ... I can conclude that it is out of ignorance, intolerance and desperation that people are stooping to such referential lows towards the initiative for Switzerland to regain it's sovereign right to dictate it's own, independent, immigration policy.

A Swiss person wrote me earlier today: (I have corrected some spelling)

"what I am getting here is, that now since the vote came out positive for restricting immigration,all of a sudden quite a bit of people are getting the confidence to speak up boldly, cause they are not afraid to get singled out. I am surprised at the healthy backbone some people show. It seems like this positive outcome gives some people belief back in their country, that it is possible indeed to keep it. It shows how many people would want that. it's a real breath of fresh air to hear them. you find 1 person saying, better to be poorer then foreigners tell us how to run things here. This richness we don't need, it's destroying us anyway. I think most Swiss people are very thrifty and should Switzerland get more poor, good I see whole heartedly, cause then most of the Leaches will go. Better though it'll stay medium rich and they make proper restrictions and keep their sovereignty."

Another Swiss/German person wrote me:

"And as the Federal Councillor, Simonetta Sommaruga, said in her address to the Swiss people that through all her many journeys in Switzerland she saw that even the people that voted no are concerned about the negative influences and results that immigration is bringing to Switzerland"

It is also important, I think, to note that monetary wealth is not the only way that we Swiss measure strength of our nation. We see great importance in our culture, heritage and custom - all of which should be the make-up of Swiss society. So while some cry because Switzerland may experience a financial hiccup while they readjust, others see this as necessary to protect what will in the long run ensure that Switzerland remain a Swiss nation!

And for those foreigners who call "shame" to the Swiss for having voted as a democratic nation does, I say to you - the borders are always open for you to leave!
And for those who are Swiss who say they are "embarrassed" to call themselves Swiss after the nation voted as a democratic nation does, I say to you - Shame on you for being embarrassed to call yourselves Swiss! (The borders are also open for you to leave and emigrate to some place you don't feel so embarrassed about! - But I would rather you remained and take this one on the chin.)
About "others see this as necessary to protect what will in the long run ensure that Switzerland remain a Swiss nation! "

According to the official statistics at least one million foreigners (360K Swiss born plus 700+K over 12 years residence) are eligible to apply for Swiss citizenship. If they have any sense they will fill out the forms today to protect their futures.
Of course if this achieves the objective "Switzerland remain a Swiss nation" or not is open for discussion.

It would also have the benefit of reducing the % of foreigners to less than 10% which would be a victory for the SVP

second thoughts - it would also mean the number of foreigners here would not be many more then the Swiss who live abroad so achieving some kind of balance

Third thoughts - do you believe the difference in voting results between the Italian, French and German parts supports your notion of a single Swiss nation??

Last edited by marton; 10.02.2014 at 14:01. Reason: second thoughts
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  #1142  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And for those who are Swiss who say they are "embarrassed" to call themselves Swiss after the nation voted as a democratic nation does, I say to you - Shame on you for being embarrassed to call yourselves Swiss! (The borders are also open for you to leave and emigrate to some place you don't feel so embarrassed about! - But I would rather you remained and take this one on the chin.)
I actually agree with you here- democracy is a democracy, and the will of the people must be upheld.

However, the Swiss have to realize that all actions have consequences. First, they were fully conscious that voting yes may lead to the cancellation of Switzerland's privileges in accessing the single EEA market. Calling any actions to this effect "bullying" and "childish behavior" is not helpful. Freedom of movement was an integral part of this arrangement.

Second, they will lose the right to live and work freely in the EU countries. In 3 years time, they will be discriminated against, in the same manner as people from all other non-EU countries are. They will no longer be able to count on social protection when living in the EU countries, and their children will most likely no longer be eligible for reduced fee status in European universities. Again, no "bullying" here, simple tit for tat relations.

Good luck to 400,000 Swiss living in the EU, and intending to move there in the future.
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  #1143  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Thanks
Interesting example of people presenting their ideas as facts (Swiss people would not work abroad) when the reality is quite different.
To add an anecdotal example... I have had 5 Swiss students as interns / project / thesis students during my years at Uni, out of them 4 are now in different EU countries, working in the low tech, backward ... space industry.
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  #1144  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Maybe the solution is the withdrawal of the Francophone bits of Switzerland from the confederation. They could establish a new republic - Bourgogne Est, or something - then apply to join the EU, where they can have subsidies galore and all the economic security afforded by adoption of the Euro.


Meanwhile, after Ticino has been sold to Italy for a nominal sum of 1 centesimo, the rest of the cantons of Switzerland can consolidate, make their own laws without interference from outsiders and go on to become a happy archipelago of Germanic industry and prosperity in a sea of diminishing pensions and youth unemployment.


Now that would be democracy truly in action!

Spiffing! hehehe
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  #1145  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Wow! An Australian in Switzerland calling for a Kanton to be "kicked out of the Swiss Confederation" - now I have seen it all!
Wow! A completely humourless Swiss* person! Now I've seen it all!




*Loosely speaking.
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  #1146  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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What really would interest me is what implications that has for us foreigners who've been working here for years (paying very large sums of tax, I might add).

Will we have to register every few months to be allowed to stay?

I have heard that foreigners will have to pay their unemployment insurance to the "State", but still get kicked out as soon as they lose their job. This sounds really harsh to me, and I'd hope they wouldn't screw anyone over like that...
It wouldn't make any constitutional sense. Why would anyone have to pay the AHV if then he's not getting anything should he/she lose his/her job? Come on.
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  #1147  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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What I mean is how can 3.2% unemployment be considered horrendous?

For example, being in full employment doesn't actually mean that a country has to have zero unemployment, as the allowance is made for people moving between jobs, structural unemployment etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment

In any country I am aware of, 3.2% unemployment rate would be considered perfect.
Last statistics says 3.5%, but half of them are foreigners. Meaning that unemployed swiss are 1.75%. I think even in USSR they didn't have those figures.

Still, they're able to complain.
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  #1148  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Many young Swiss prefer living in London, Paris, Berlin, Barcelona, although it means they have to accept a much lower salary and risk being fired more easily.
Do you know something about, say, British law, that I don't? Employees have far fewer rights in Switzerland than in the UK, and firing someone in the UK is a very complicated, drawn-out procedure. Contrast that with the Swiss process.
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  #1149  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It was 0.3% when I moved here.

Tom
When did you move? According to the statistics the current figure looks quite ok:

Country 1999 2000 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2010 2011
Switzerland 2.8 1.9 1.9 3.7 3.4 3.8 3.3 2.8 2.6 3.9 3.1

2012 2013
3.2 3.5
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Old 10.02.2014, 13:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It wouldn't make any constitutional sense. Why would anyone have to pay the AHV if then he's not getting anything should he/she lose his/her job? Come on.
I a non-EU national. I have lived and worked in 3 different countries, and was always taxed in the same manner as the locals. However, I was never eligible for any benefits/social protection. Anywhere.
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Old 10.02.2014, 14:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I lold at the comments of German politicians today. Its so ridiculous.

population growth / year:

Germany: 0.1%
Switzerland: 1.1%

They should really shut up until they have 10x more immigration and rents above the price of a few pizzas.
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  #1152  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I a non-EU national. I have lived and worked in 3 different countries, and was always taxed in the same manner as the locals. However, I was never eligible for any benefits/social protection. Anywhere.
And do you think that it makes any sense? Why shall I give money to 1st and 2nd pillar then? In this case, give me the full gross salary and i deal with private insurances. I have nothing wrong with that. But you cannot suck 25% of my salary for a "service" that I am not gonna get back: again, I don't think it would be legal according to the Swiss Constitution.
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  #1153  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:01
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

So, let me get this straight... We are (the EU citizens) NOT able to get a job in Switzerland?... In my way of thinking, if Switzerland is passing thru a small financial crisis, and some IT companies (for example) of Switzerland works for some other company in the world, it should make sence to HIRE people (from outside of Switzerland if its needed) to help them, because they will help earn money to the company, and its money that it will be mostly spend in Switzerland, in this way helping to survive this little crysis...

If that is the case, and there is a REAL financial crysis...........
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  #1154  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And do you think that it makes any sense? Why shall I give money to 1st and 2nd pillar then? In this case, give me the full gross salary and i deal with private insurances. I have nothing wrong with that. But you cannot suck 25% of my salary for a "service" that I am not gonna get back: again, I don't think it would be legal according to the Swiss Constitution.

I am the last person to believe that this makes sense What I am saying, however, is that it's very likely that if the Swiss will treat the EU and non-EU people in the same manner, they will tax them like the locals, but will not give them any benefits in return.
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  #1155  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So, let me get this straight... We are (the EU citizens) NOT able to get a job in Switzerland?....
False - try again
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Old 10.02.2014, 14:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I am the last person to believe that this makes sense What I am saying, however, is that it's very likely that if the Swiss will treat the EU and non-EU people in the same manner, they will tax them like the locals, but will not give them any benefits in return.
It is not quite so awful.
The non-EU people, unless their work permits are tied to their employers, can get non-employment benefits at least until their permits are due for renewal. In practice, that means for less than a year, usually, but it's not quite as dire as you lose a job, you're out.

And that is still better than the two other foreign countries I lived in before, as a non-EU national.
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Old 10.02.2014, 14:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Call from my US trained CEO:

"Heard about the referendum results, what does this mean for us in terms of availability of labour in the future?"

Answer "Sir, it will be several years before this come into effect, if ever. There will be discussions with the EU and the EU will not allow Switzerland to treat the Schengen accords as an a la carte menu."

CEO: "Business does not like uncertainty. My board will not approve an investment where we are not welcome."

Answer "Switzerland has a business friendly environment. The cantons where there are a lot of european workers and thus economic prosperity voted against the initiative. I have an infographic..."

CEO: " I want a team to evaluate moving R&D to xxxxxx. We are going to re-evaluate the expansion of production in Switzerland."

Answer "Despite higher labour costs, Swiss operations are profitable and Canton XXXX has given us a break on taxes."

CEO "We export over 90% of our Swiss production without Schengen those exports to the EU will become more complex. If we do not have the skilled staff we need we will not be able to maintain production levels.

Taxes are not an issue. We are moving our IP portfolio off-shore. We can ensure that licence fees, logistics charges from our captive 3PL affiliate and management fees absorb all profits from our Swiss operation."

Answer " But sir..."

CEO "Stop being an apologist. You are drinking the kool-aid. How long have you been there? Three years? Citizenship takes what 10 years? I am starting to think that you should look for a transfer."

Dial tone...

http://www.martingrandjean.ch/wp-con...seVotation.jpg
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Old 10.02.2014, 14:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It is not quite so awful.
The non-EU people, unless their work permits are tied to their employers, can get non-employment benefits at least until their permits are due for renewal. In practice, that means for less than a year, usually, but it's not quite as dire as you lose a job, you're out.

And that is still better than the two other foreign countries I lived in before, as a non-EU national.
Sorry, aren't all work permits for non-EU nationals working in Switzerland tied to a specific employer?
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Old 10.02.2014, 14:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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False - try again
So we can still get a job and live in Switzerland?
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  #1160  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So we can still get a job and live in Switzerland?
Of course you can! The question is, do you have the skills that are in demand. But of course you can get work here.
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