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  #1221  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The most interesting thing to me is that for the most part, Kantons where people are more likely to have experience of foreigners voted against the initiative. But if foreigners were truly a bad influence on Swiss society, why wouldn't these people be more likely to vote yes.
Simple, and this has been covered exhaustively already.

More urbane, more experience with "foreigners"**, more world-open, more cosmopolitan.
To put things more Kafkaesque - Europeans with experience of Europeans (for the most part).

** Evil smelling, thieving, murderous, baby-eating, nun-raping.
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  #1222  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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PS: I have never met anyone working as a professional whose salary is not at least double than you mentioned.
You've never met a professional making less than 10k a month?

Oh, life in the expat bubble...
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  #1223  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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and most people who work in London live outside because of unpayable rents. But I guess we could dig some caves under our mountains for the common folk.
I live in central London, because I am ok with a nice one bedroom apartment in a nice area. The rent I am paying is still cheaper that what I would be paying in Geneva, for example.

People who live outside of central London fall in mainly two groups: those who earn very little and cannot afford it, or those who prefer to live in their own bigger houses.

Still, I hope you did not miss what I said about Switzerland being 15 times as big as greater London, yet having a smaller population size.
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  #1224  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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oh WOW! Now this definitely hurts!
5800 is quite a nice salary, also for professionals!

Double than that? WOW!

I think I begin to understand why you guys don't have an understanding for Swiss people being afraid of the exploding rental prices.
Wait...I thought Swiss people were afraid of foreigners accepting too low salaries. So low is not good, high is not good. Just say that "non swiss" is not good.

Easier
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  #1225  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The most interesting thing to me is that for the most part, Kantons where people are more likely to have experience of foreigners voted against the initiative. But if foreigners were truly a bad influence on Swiss society, why wouldn't these people be more likely to vote yes.
because overpopulation it has absolutely nothing to do with nationality, race or origin. I would glady replace 100'000 swiss with 50'000 foreigners.
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  #1226  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Well, that's it then isn't it? We might as well start booking our flights and leaving voluntarily before the Swiss secret police bundle us all into vans and dump us at the border. I mean, because that's what this vote entails, No? Doesn't it?
Well…that's not the Swiss way. But you'll probably notice something next time you look for a job or search for housing.
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  #1227  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Also - real life experiences. In Migros, a black man was ahead of us in line. There were NFC payment signs up above all the checkouts. He tapped his visa and made a quick NFC payment, it paid, but instantly security converged on him and accused him of stealing. when he flipped open his wallet and his roche badge was showing, not to show the badge but to try to show his visa credit card, they calmed down and stopped trying to instantly cuff him. It was quite obviously racial profiling (I am completely Caucasian myself). I have seen many caucasian people use NFC and never get jumped by 3 people at the local Migros...

Its not just the SVP signs...

The local COOP and Migros have removed barbecue sauce and British products from the shelves in the past two weeks, I know it is a detail, but the writing is on the wall.... they no longer want us to be comfortable here. Those with the means will take the hint, giving them less to sort out in 3 years.
About "The local COOP and Migros have removed barbecue sauce..." - it is Winter?
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  #1228  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So the vote participation was 56% of the population.

The results on this was 50.3 for the yes...

Hardly represent what each and every Swiss think of the situation...

I think I'll wait before to stress out about this whole thing.
But even if the majority for is tiny- democracy means it wins the vote- however frustrating for those who voted agaisnt- especially when they will have to suffer the economic and other consequences.

Mind you- democracy in the UK is a strange concept- as with the first past the post' system, a Prime Minister can be voted in even if the majority voted against I lived in an area where my political views did not fit in- and I could have thrown my vote in the bin each time (I still voted on principle).
Bizarre.

Mrs Thatcher never won more than 44 percent of the vote, though in Britain’s winner-takes-all parliamentary system that was enough to secure massive majorities.
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  #1229  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You've never met a professional making less than 10k a month?

Oh, life in the expat bubble...
Well, aren't we talking about expats in this thread?

For "professional" I don't mean the 25 years old software developer. I mean someone with experience.

And 10 K i mean GROSS, not NET
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  #1230  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Maybe we all speak martian here.

IF Switzerland is gonna limit the EU immigration this will kill the bilateral contracts. Is it so hard to understand? The whole EU idea is based on 4 pillars. And no, you cannot just choose the ones you like and refuse the other ones. Too easy.

This is gonna be a boomerang, and I even think that the political parties who presented this never thought it would have passed, and now they're scared as hell coz they have no clue of how to handle this.
Shot onself in the foot, yes. Use google.de and search for 'schweiz rosinenpicker'.

All of this tumult could have been avoided if the best, cleverest heads had sat down together , over a good meal and had a long pragmatic discussion.
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  #1231  
Old 10.02.2014, 16:59
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Re: New Immigration Rules vs. non-EU members

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The initiation does not answer any question that you mentioned.

The only thing is that there will be an overall limit of immigration, including all nationalities (EU/non-EU). But it does not specify how this limit will be implemented, specially, whether there will be different limits for EU and non-EU. If there is no distinguish of EU/non-EU under the cap (i.e. they will be on the same foot), then it is a major good news for non-EU. However, based on the EU-CH relation and many political/economical considerations, this possibility is almost excluded.

Personally I think the most probable thing is: the quota system of non-EU will be untouched, and they will introduce a new quota system for EU (which has a probably much higher quota). In one word, Switzerland will continue its two parallel systems respect to immigration (EU and non-EU).

But on the other hand, the fact that for EU nationals will also be subject to quotas (although this quota might be very large) and that the employers will have to ask for permit for them, this fact itself will already do some favor for non-EU. In some cases, the boss who must choose one from EU and one from non-EU might think: anyway I have to ask a permit for either of them...
About "whether there will be different limits for EU and non-EU. " before FMOP EU people had priority, remember the three circles?
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  #1232  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:01
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Re: New Immigration Rules vs. non-EU members

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About "whether there will be different limits for EU and non-EU. " before FMOP EU people had priority, remember the three circles?
I deleted my reply because i thought I was replying to a thread which asks about the impact on non-EU... But then it disappeared...
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  #1233  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:01
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Shot onself in the foot, yes. Use google.de and search for 'schweiz rosinenpicker'.

All of this tumult could have been avoided if the best, cleverest heads had sat down together , over a good meal and had a long pragmatic discussion.
But Blocher (whose money controls the SVP) wants to destroy the EU relationship - it is nothing to do with immigration as such; that was just a convenient peg to hang the campaign on.
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  #1234  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Well, aren't we talking about expats in this thread?

For "professional" I don't mean the 25 years old software developer. I mean someone with experience.

And 10 K i mean GROSS, not NET
ok.
so, according to the information in this link
http://www.lohncomputer.ch/de/loehne.html

nurses and teachers are not professionals
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  #1235  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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As for your "maybe your skills are not in high demand", it's very easy to say, but may be more difficult in practice.
This is in "practice" all over the world. A foreigner comes to a country as a tourist, a student or a worker. All three reasons are limited by time. When your time runs out you either reapply or leave. If your reapplication is unsuccessful you leave. Don't worry, you have a nation of your own to go back to.

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What if you lose your job a month before your permit is to expire?
Then you have a month to find another job or to get a job search permit.

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What if the quota has been reached?
Then return to your land of origin with a smile on your face and a fatter bank account.

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What if the cost of hiring you (monetary and time) is very high, so the employers will not hire you, even if you are way better than competition?
What if the cost of hiring you is not very high and what if you are not way better than the competition.
This is just too speculative a question to be taken very seriously.

Overall I think the change in immigration policy will make people who want to work in Switzerland think about it a little more seriously and not with that careless "throw my stuff in the car and drive over there to get a job" mentality. People will really make damned sure that their job contracts are sure and solid, and for a length of time that makes it worth the employees while.
Also I hope that those who don't come to Switzerland to work will take it upon themselves to try to make their own countries home and sort out any kinks in their local area which lead to them looking abroad for work.

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You will probably say "it's your choice, don't come if you don't like it". Just to prevent this kind of statement, I would like to say that most likely I will not bother applying for the Swiss jobs.
No problem!

Last edited by EAB; 10.02.2014 at 17:25.
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  #1236  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:06
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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But Blocher (whose money controls the SVP) wants to destroy the EU relationship - it is nothing to do with immigration as such; that was just a convenient peg to hang the campaign on.
How can you want to "destroy" the relationship with EU? With all the respect, we're in 2014, Switzerland has no access to the sea, no natural resources and it's heavily relying on export for its own wealth. Destroying relationship with EU means suicide. Do you really think they want their suicide?

As I said before, I think the whole topic is just a propaganda idea that went out of control. Simple as that. Nobody thought it'd have passed, and now that it passed they're like "uhm, now what"? That's why they did not specify any quota and the whole law is just smoky.
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  #1237  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:06
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It's news to me that there is a high level of EU immigration in these countries. If the Swedes have problems with EU immigrants (not that I believe they have), then why do they allow so many asyulm seekers?
You are making the mistake of applying logic to a very emotional, and thus irrational, problem. As opposed to the Swiss' 70% of immigrants being highly educated, the avg for the rest of the EU is a mere 35%. What happens to immigrants who can't/won't learn the language and have few job prospects in a sagging economy? They go on the dole. Sweden has Mälmo to stir this particular issue and they take the asylum seekers grudgingly due to quotas set by the EU. Italy has the huge influx of North Africans, too.
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  #1238  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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this is in "practice" all over the world. A foreigner comes to a country as a tourist, a student or a worker. All three reasons are limited by time. When your time runs out you either reapply or leave. If your reapplication is unsuccessful you leave. Don't worry, you have a nation of your own to go back to.


then you have a month to find another job or to get a job search permit.


Then return to your land of origin with a smile on your face and a fatter bank account.

I smell end-of-twenties, start-of-thirties europe again.



What if the cost of hiring you is not very high and what if you are not way better than the competition.
This is just too speculative a question to be taken very seriously.

Overall i think the change in immigration policy will make people who want to work in switzerland think about it a little more seriously and not with that careless "through my stuff in the car and drive over there to get a job" mentality. People will really make damned sure that their job contracts are sure and solid, and for a length of time that makes it worth the employees while.
Also i hope that those who don't come to switzerland to work will take it upon themselves to try to make their own countries home and sort out any kinks in their local area which lead to them looking abroad for work.





You will probably say "it's your choice, don't come if you don't like it". Just to prevent this kind of statement, i would like to say that most likely i will not bother applying for the swiss jobs.
[/quote]


I smell end-of-twenties, start-of-thirties Europe again.

Last edited by Aubrey; 10.02.2014 at 17:09. Reason: Inexcusable lack of concentration
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  #1239  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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But even if the majority for is tiny- democracy means it wins the vote- however frustrating for those who voted agaisnt- especially when they will have to suffer the economic and other consequences.

Mind you- democracy in the UK is a strange concept- as with the first past the post' system, a Prime Minister can be voted in even if the majority voted against I lived in an area where my political views did not fit in- and I could have thrown my vote in the bin each time (I still voted on principle).
Bizarre.

Mrs Thatcher never won more than 44 percent of the vote, though in Britain’s winner-takes-all parliamentary system that was enough to secure massive majorities.
So why so little interest for the Swiss in this vote?
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  #1240  
Old 10.02.2014, 17:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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ok.
so, according to the information in this link
http://www.lohncomputer.ch/de/loehne.html

nurses and teachers are not professionals
When I talk about professionals I mean more people working in Finance, Software Engineering, Doctors, Lawyers etc.
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